Leggo Poker Every Tool You Need To Win

BobboFitos

Sep
07
2011
Dynamic Poker
Posted in Poker | View Comments (23)
 




I've recently been reading "Inverting the Pyramid"...



Which is a book, as the sub-title says, that is essentially about the history of tactics in football. It's somewhat of a sluggish read - I expected it to be more of a Moneyball thrill ride, but instead it contains a million different Eastern European and South American names that, frankly, are impossible to pronounce. The story isn't really woven well - it probably would work better as a textbook. Regardless, it has served it's purpose, and I've found out why various countries played various formations, how conventional lineups changed, and who the innovators were. (And what led them to the said innovation!) And a thought occurred to me.

The concept of "Dynamicism" applies to many fields - in Chess, for example, a player who is thought to be dynamic may avoid some moves which dumb down the position (like trading pieces) in order to create a more confusing/complicated position. In Football (the real football; "Soccer"), a dynamic player is one who is, in a sense, able to create "something" out of "nothing". (Rather than slow buildup, a player who can carve the defense, beat people off the dribble, and rip a great shot after such a fancy display, like Lionel Messi, is a demonstration of a dynamic player in action)

Sometimes the lure of dynamicism replaces what could be a simpler, more effective, strategy. It's almost as though winning pretty replaces the simple fact that the games are played to win. In basketball, fans "ooh" Kobe's turnaround jumpers, but his eFG% on those particular plays aren't really that hot. Those aren't the plays that generate the Lakers' edge over other random teams, and yet those are the plays which garner the highlight footage. They simply look the best.

In poker, this is common. The player who makes the amazing hero call, wild bluff, or incredibly thin value bet is often credited for his genius, his creativity, his dynamicism. And sometimes the plays are incredibly good - although perhaps unconventional, they are things that should be conventional, only because they are grounded in theory. But there are also many plays that are praised and gawked at, but when you actually boil it down, are pretty fucking terrible. In other words, an individual has sacrificed the bottom line (perhaps not even knowingly!) in order to provide entertainment. It's not enough to win, they also have to impress while doing so.

No real point with this blog, other than to jot down a view on various styles that can succeed. In the past I've tended to side with dynamic play, almost out of loyalty. My friend JC Moussa, for example, is a very good high stakes player. I also think his style is the complete opposite of dynamic. I pretty much know how he's going to evaluate a hand, ("fold") and yet at the end of the day... He's still really good. Maybe dynamic poker is overrated?

One final comment - I went to Foxwoods last week from Tuesday to Thursday. The game plays 10 handed there, dealers do not collect their own tips (but will in a month or so), and there are many regulars, most of whom act slowly and tightly. Apparently one of the regulars (an older Asian man, Alex told me he's there often but probably doesn't lose much - it's impossible to think this guy is a pro who wins) late in the night leaned over and whispered to Alex, "Does your friend [me] have a gambling problem?" Alex responded "Uh, no, why?" And he said, completely seriously, "He has played every hand, I haven't seen him fold before a flop yet". Thought that was funny...

Digg this Post! Add Post to del.icio.us Bookmark Post in Technorati Spurl this Post! Google Bookmark this Post!
Comments 23 Email Blog Entry  
Comments
09-07-2011
Gerv is offline Gerv
Gerv's Avatar
Didn't knew that book existed... makes me want to buy it and read it, do you recommend it?
Nowadays most teams play 4-2-3-1 (Real madrid, holland, spain, others?) while barca plays the neo 4-3-3 , what is your favourite formation?
09-07-2011
BobboFitos is offline BobboFitos
Gerv, I'm a big advocate of tailoring the system to fit the players. I can't stand it when coaches have "a system", and rigidly implement it regardless of players. (You see this in basketball a lot) So, I'm going to say "it depends" :P All that said, I actually like the 3-3-3-1 the best. A few teams use it nowadays, so it's not really out of style.

As far as recommending it... I learned a bit, so that's good, but it wasn't as enjoyable as a book about football SHOULD be, if that makes sense?
09-07-2011
grogheadflow is online now grogheadflow
grogheadflow's Avatar
Barca don't really have a formation, at least going forward. Messi on paper is always at the point of the attack and he pops up everywhere.

I've never really seen or heard of 3-3-3-1 ? How does this work in practice, ie what is the shape of it? Wingbacks?

Btw your only gambling problem is that you don't do enough of it !
09-07-2011
Gerv is offline Gerv
Gerv's Avatar
I think 3 central def, 1 defending midfield, 2 wings (2nd 3 of the 3-3-3-1) who can either be defensive/offensive (a lá dani alves, marcelo, ramos) and then 3 attacking midfields?? Sounds strange

hmm my Hattrick team plays 2-5-3:
http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/834/1sshot04.jpg/

And yea reading football is not as enjoyable as playing itself!
09-07-2011
jonstermonster is offline jonstermonster
best blog ive read in a long time. really good points that are important to be reminded of.
09-07-2011
BobboFitos is offline BobboFitos
Grog, Chile use the 3-3-3-1. I think St. Etienes used a 3-3-3-1 a lot. The idea is a strong mid with more of the middies with a license to push forward. (and 1 designated striker) Teams that are abandoning the striker altogether (like Barca w/ a 4-6) are just so talented they can do whatever. I'm not sure that's actually optimal, they just make it look optimal.

I really think the game is won in the middle of the field. Watching the USA struggle so far in the Klinsman era, (Granted, only 3 games in, but 1 goal scored and 0-2-1 doesn't bode well) I think he has it all wrong. The USA's strength is NOT in attacking football, but we have a bunch of quality middies. IMO just load up a formation that allows you to put your best XI on the field...

Jonster, thanks man. Appreciate it.
09-07-2011
reverie is offline reverie
It seems like "dynamic" could most often be replaced by "fancy" or "unconventional" and then you wouldn't need faux-cerebral concepts like "Dynamicism".
09-07-2011
bw07507 is offline bw07507
bw07507's Avatar
How any self respecting American can refer to the game of soccer as football is beyond me.
09-08-2011
SlowHabit is offline SlowHabit
Bobbo,

Tight is right
09-08-2011
lostinthesaus is offline lostinthesaus
Quote:
How any self respecting American can refer to the game of soccer as football is beyond me.
hang out with some non-americans for a while...you'll start to feel like the word "soccer" makes you look like a huge life fish.
09-08-2011
grizy123 is offline grizy123
How any self-respecting human can call American football football is beyond me.
09-08-2011
BobboFitos is offline BobboFitos
reverie, sorry you didn't like the concept.
bw/saus/griz - :P
tri, yah, GENERALLY it is.
09-09-2011
Gerv is offline Gerv
Gerv's Avatar
I found an article about this chile 3-3-1-3 formation:
http://www.zonalmarking.net/2010/06/...-2010-tactics/
09-09-2011
fuser1986 is offline fuser1986
fuser1986's Avatar
4-3-1-2 is the way to go. Old school argy bargy style!
09-09-2011
fuser1986 is offline fuser1986
fuser1986's Avatar
Argentina use to play this 3-3-1-3 formation. Marcelo Bielsa who coached Chile and Argentina likes this formation. Its a very verticle form of soccer. Completely different that to a barca style that being short and patient and long when needed.
09-13-2011
grizy123 is offline grizy123
I've been thinking about this and I really think this is true with a lot of the most famous players who gained much of their fame because they are insanely aggressive but their results do not compare to guys that play more fundamentally sound over long periods of time.
09-13-2011
grizy123 is offline grizy123
It actually reminded me of something Jman28 (aka Phil Galfond) wrote in his blog years ago.

"As far as style, and I know that this will shatter the hearts and explode the heads of many a 2p2er and CR member who don't think this is possible, I think you're too aggressive."

http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/19...25/index2.html

I still buy into the notion of "err on the side of aggression" but I strongly suspect people are using the idea to justify FPS most of the time.
09-13-2011
grizy123 is offline grizy123
not blog, well.

WTB: editing
09-15-2011
tufts is offline tufts
hey rob,

interesting note about the dynamicism. i've noticed this about my own game; basically i try way too hard to create something out of nothing because i want to win. in the end, this holds me back and stops me from getting the results i think i can achieve. the question for me has always been if i'm so good, why don't i win as much as i think i should be?

i guess what i'm coming around to is: there is a difference between tailoring your decisions to try and "win" and trying to make your best decisions and letting the results flow naturally from that. there's a time and a place for everything. in many arenas, the "great" players who separate themselves from the rest of the field are indeed capable of doing things others aren't. but that doesn't mean they do them all the time. kobe isn't fading from 3 on every shot; i don't think many would argue that he has good fundamentals that serve him well. it isn't solely the capacity to make breathtaking shots or to go "above and beyond" that make him great; rather it is that COMBINED with solid ability that make him great. in other words, the guy who can make every buzzerbeater and spectacular shot isn't going to be valuable if he can't dribble or make a free throw. i think people see all the fancy stuff and they think "oh, that's what winning looks like, i should be doing that" when that isn't really the case at all.
09-15-2011
tufts is offline tufts
so i guess bottom line is this:

i think the people who really excel at anything have tools at their disposal that others do not. whether it be kobe's fadeaway, phil galfond's handreading, roger federer's forehand, etc. people see these extraordinary abilities at work and they think "that's what winning looks like. that's what i need to do." then the focus shifts from playing good basketball to looking like kobe; or playing solid poker to 5 bet bluff shoving. and this is where people get confused: phil galfond isn't sitting there saying to himself good players double float and shove rivers so that's what i need to do. rather he's thinking the same thing you are (or should be): how do i make the best decision right now? it just so happens that he's better than you and me and thinks of things we don't. so the answer to this is not to go out and mimic is play and do all the fancy stuff; rather it is to study the underlying mechanisms and thought processes that differ from ours that allow him to have more tools to make the better decisions more of the time. not just blindly 3 barrel or 5 bet bluff or what have you because that's what good, tricky players do. that's really missing the point.
09-15-2011
tufts is offline tufts
last addendum to wrap up all of this:

playing creative or dynamic poker shouldn't be made out to be an end in and of itself. rather it should occur naturally (or not) from what should be your only focus: making the best decision possible. if you don't think you're creative or tricky enough, don't try to compensate for that by mimicking what you think tricky, creative play looks like. figure out the ideas behind tricky creative play that you are misunderstanding or lacking and try to grasp them... and then just keep trying to make the best decisions possible.
10-09-2011
BobboFitos is offline BobboFitos
Hadn't checked comments in a while, sorry Dave, but yeah, I think you nailed it completely.
11-11-2011
sauce123 is offline sauce123
Hah, Rob, I definitely agree that being dynamic for aesthetic reasons is usually a baaaad idea. Both you and I tend to get labeled as dynamic/aggressive/LAG players, but I know at least in my head I'm a boring/balanced/TAG player. One reason why this might be is that my perceived "dynamic" plays fit naturally into my playstyle rather than being added ad hoc to look cool or get myself out of trouble or maximally exploit a certain player in a certain situation.
 
Recent Blog Entries by BobboFitos