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cntgetmedown

Sep
16
2010
Sunday Tournament Analysis Part I
Posted in Poker | View Comments (11)
 

What's up guys. I've decided to review some of my hands from Sunday in my blog. I would definetly not consider myself a tournament expert, just a cash game player that takes shots at tournaments on occasion. Personally I don't find the prospect of grinding tournaments appealing, but sometimes it's good to break routine and play some tournaments. Playing high-mid stakes/high stakes cash games can be mentally draining at times, tournaments in comparison are almost relaxing, but they consume a lot of time.

I put 1450$ in touraments on Sunday. I played the 750k on FTP for 216$, the 215$ WCOOP-21, the 530$ WCOOP-22, 80$ Sunday Challenge on Pacific, 163$ 150k on FTP. I ended up winning 1688$ for a profit of 238$. Most of that profit came from my deep run in the Brawl, where I was chip leader with about 65 people left to go, but ended up busting in 32nd position.

This first hand is from the Brawl:

No Limit Holdem Tournament • 8 Players

Generated by weaktight.com.

UTG394k
UTG+1288k
MP1109k
Hero130k
CO51k
BTN368k
SB252k
BB312k

Blinds 4k/8k Ante 1k

  • Pre-Flop (20k, 8 players)Hero is MP2
  • cT c8
3 folds, Hero goes all-in 129k ...

As I mentioned above I was chip leader with about 65 people left to go. However I lost about 50% of my stack trying to resteal from big stacks that were opening wide in late position and calling short stack allins. For some reason the CO doesn't show up here. The CO had 50k in chips.
I had about 15 big blinds and an M of 6 and felt like this would be a profitable stealing spot from a chipev standpoint. I think tournamentev considerations are not all too relevant here as the money bubble steps weren't that large at this point and generally my tournamentev will be larger if I have more chips than less.
The question though is how +ev this shove actually is. I think the easiest way to analyze this is to find some ev calculation software and input the variables then run it, because it's a potentially multiway situation it won't be straightforward to calculate using pen and paper. You could also use excel to figure out the numbers. I generally find excel an intriguing piece of software, because it isn't too difficult to learn and it can be applied to various different situations.
However if you were to do this with pen and paper you could get a rough estimations by assuming people's calling ranges and your equity against it excluding the possibility that multiple people call. This obviously won't be very accurate, but it will give you a rough estimation of the ev of the play.
Let me just go over my estimates of ranges for the various players and then tell you what kind of ev I come up with after running simulations.
So the CO only has 6,25bb, this isn't a large stack so one would think he would be compelled to call with a lot of his range. However I believe it is typically correct to assume that there is reasonable chance villain is a poor player waiting for a hand and has thus let himself blind down to his stack size. Naturally he can also be a good player that has just lost the large majority of his stack in a pot. I estimate his calling range at the following: 44+,A7s+,KQs,A9o+,KQo.
I'll assume the BTN, SB and BB will all reshove with: 66+,ATs+,KQs,AJo+ and in the case of a reshove they will call with JJ+,AQs+,AQo+ vs a big stack and 88+,AJs+,AQo+ vs the short stack. I will also assume that if there are two calls the third player will only enter the pot with KK+. These are just my rough estimates and not exact ranges, but I think they'll enable me to get some reasonable estimates.
Ok that was very tedious, even though I was using software to aide my calculations. If anybody knows of a better way to do the calculation please let me know.

So apparently based on my estimations of ranges my play will yield me a long term ev of about +3bbs. That is a pretty reasonable ev to have and it would make my play very profitable. From my experience however this ev seems too high. People's calling range will probably wider, especially when the BB is facing the decision whether to call or not when everybody infront of him has folded.
Multiway calling ranges may also be wider. However there is a decent chance my play is +ev nontheless. If I tweak the BB's calling range to include 44,55, KQo and ATo our ev drops to slightly below 3bbs, but is still high.
I think I'm gonna take a break for now and look at the ranges again later. The good thing now is that I can use my calculations as a template for similar spots that may arise in the future.
I'll try and post some of the other spots that came up in my next blog.

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Comments
09-16-2010
If2shae&RajmasterMated is offline If2shae&RajmasterMated
I honestly didn't read all that analysis you did. It's GTO shove. Afaik that makes it unexploitable?
09-17-2010
cntgetmedown is online now cntgetmedown
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I didn't know it was GTO, would you care to share your resources? Is there a good tool for figuring out these spots? I know, I am an MTT fish XD.
09-17-2010
klink- is offline klink-
i have no idea whats going on in that HH it shows 3 players and im not even sure which one is you.
09-17-2010
cntgetmedown is online now cntgetmedown
Updated 09-17-2010 at 09:16 AM by cntgetmedown
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Yea you're right it is confusing, but it's very simple. We're in the Hijack and we shove for 130k first in. CO has 50k in chips. You can see it more clearly in the image, it's the same hand. I'll see if I can fix it.

edit: Should make sense now. 3 folds (UTG, UTG+1, MP1) and we (Hijack) shove.
09-17-2010
The_End is offline The_End
With a hand like this, the tighter they call the more you should shove. However, with 4 players behind you and 16bb (M=over 6) i am pretty sure it's a fold according to push fold charts
09-17-2010
If2shae&RajmasterMated is offline If2shae&RajmasterMated
If you are in the Hj that changes things. It's a mistake. It's only gto in the Co+.
09-17-2010
cntgetmedown is online now cntgetmedown
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Thanks for pointing this out guys. I've now found some pushbot charts on the interwebs and compaired my results. Seems as though my assumptions were too tight. With an M of 6 I'm probably too far off to justify shoving here.
09-17-2010
klink- is offline klink-
i mean its closer that you think, i honestly think its fine. I think in general in this spot people are folding way too frequently because they don't know how to adjust their calling ranges and general nitty behavior due to over valuing tourney life/icm issues however you want to justifly it. Its sort of a spot where you can let shoving ranges dictate what you do (all a GTO shove means is that over infinite hands it will never be a losing play no matter what they do with their range). It also depends on the tournament, any live mtt its a really easy shove cause old nits aren't calling wide as they should, but in tougher online tournaments with bigger buyins, people are calling closer to optimal ranges with what your range is looks like when you do jam. In general i would say the deeper you get into a major like that, the tigher many of the weaker players may play, and the brawl is a pretty fishy tournament in general (also its earlier in the day, the earlier ones usually are much softer then the later ones,).
09-18-2010
cntgetmedown is online now cntgetmedown
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Yea, I agree with what you said. I don't think my shove was terrible, however I wasn't compairing my results to a GTO chart, but to a chart that assumed tight calling ranges behind me. It came up with an M of 5.7.
However now that I reviewed it again, it says those numbers were for situations where we are out of the money. This is jcm4ccc's chart I'm referring too by the way if you know that. He is actually never shoving T8s in the money unless he's on the button or in the small blind, however from my understanding his chart is to be looked at under the assumptions he made for the chart. He's basically assuming that our current $ev is too great to justify risking our stack to win one or two blinds. This actually reinsures me that my shove is likely +cev vs tight callers based on my cev calculations. Anyhow thanks for the input.
09-18-2010
The_End is offline The_End
What does GTO stand for?

Anyways, the chart I have says this with 4 players left:

M = 5; 3.5; 2.4

Left column (“Tight”): 66+ A6s+ A8o+ KQs
Middle column (“Average”): 22+ A2s+ A2o+ KQs
Right column (“Loose”): 22+ A2s+ A2o+ KTs+ KJo+ QJs QJo JTs

So with the callingranges as described, those are the Ms you can start pushing T8s. I thought in this tournament the callingrange would be between Tight and Average, so start pushing with M of 4.5 or so.

Gonna google ur chart in a sec to compare
09-18-2010
cntgetmedown is online now cntgetmedown
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GTO stands for Game Theory Optimal. Yea I can tell that you're chart has looser definitions for tight than mine.
In my analysis I was assuming tight as: 66+,ATs+,KQs,AJo+ (as posted above). Fwiw it's probably too tight, but I really do expect people to be getting away from hands like A6-A8s, A8o and A9o. I mean I am shoving 15bb from the hijack when I am not forced to shove very wide.
 
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