Leggo Poker Every Tool You Need To Win

JEM87

Aug
24
2009
Staking/coaching
Posted in Poker | View Comments (15)
 

Not me of course. Don't get too excited. I just want to talk a little about two of the most useless devices in poker, as they're most commonly used. Basically, I think in most staking or coaching agreements, at least one of the people is getting ripped off.

Staking

I'm not talking about one-time stakes for big events or splitting action in a big cash game or anything, only about long-term tourney stakes and cash game stakes. If you're on or looking for a long-term stake like this it's for one of three reasons:

1. You got hacked or some sort of disaster struck and you lost all your money
2. You're a degen with no bankroll management
3. You suck but managed to convince someone that you don't

If someone wants to convince me otherwise they're welcome to try. I'm not trying to be a dick but it's something I have to be frank about because nobody seems to realize it. I just can't think of any reason someone would want to get staked to play something they aren't rolled for unless they've already played a bunch of it and they're a proven solid winner. Otherwise they're just giving away half their winnings in a game they probably shouldn't be playing.

If you're as good as you advertise to your staker, it should be really really easy for a cash game player to grind up a good bankroll playing 1 level lower for just 1 or 2 months. You make some loot while grinding lower, and now you get to keep all of your winnings when you move up.

The Turning Stone trip got me thinking more about this because half the guys who show up there are staked, low-mid level MTT players who are dead broke because they choose to get backed in the most high-variance form of poker while not grinding any SNGs or cash games. And that's not to mention the possible psychological effects of the staking agreement. Because of the way MTTs work, you're really likely to start out in some sort of hole. If the hole gets big enough, which it often does, you get to a point where if you spike a big score you aren't going to see any of it, and every day you don't spike big, well you just dug yourself a deeper hole. Seems like it would be very depressing.


Coaching

Pretty obvious paradox in coaching. Coaches usually charge less $/hr than their supposed playing hourly because potential students couldn't afford that hourly rate. If that's the case then my question is, why are they coaching in the first place instead of using that time to play, or talk with people of the same or higher skill level and make more money?

Another problem is that a lot of people are much better players than they are coaches, so the player seeking coaching also gets screwed a lot. I hope all you guys out there paying for coaching are getting more than just sweat sessions and talking for an hour. I'm talking long written reports on your play, homework assignments, etc.

Oh yeah, I forgot to say that when a player gets staked & coached (for free) by the same person, it can work out well for both. I did something where I watched someone play for 3 or 4 hours for a week, commented the whole time, then at the end of the week I wrote up a long report on what he was doing right, what he was doing/thinking wrong, how to start thinking about those spots better, HH examples, etc. I probably invested 6 hours total and he made me $5k or something over the time i staked him.


Me

I didn't play all that much while I was at Turning Stone but I made $ online. Up $74k online now this month

Oh yeah, driving back from Turning Stone today on a rather empty section of highway in nowhere, PA, a stock (I think) Mustang decided he wanted to run. Smoked him getting up to 140mph, not close. Sick brag.

I'll be grinding the rest of the month so I shooooould be updating this more often. Peace,

John

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Comments
08-25-2009
the fox is bak jak is offline the fox is bak jak
Updated 08-25-2009 at 12:18 AM by the fox is bak jak
nice post,agree totally with everything you said...

my beef with coaching is that every 1 thats made a dime off poker is now advertising on 2+2,even some who havn't..

''i'm starting coaching,i'll be coaching stakes from .2/.4 to .05/.1'' and all the rest of the bullshit that goes with that.

like seriously,what a fucking joke.
08-25-2009
Probability is offline Probability
Probability's Avatar
people who are bankroll nits and / or hate variance are willing to take a hit in profit and get staked or offer coaching.
08-25-2009
jcl87 is offline jcl87
i agree 100% with ur comments on staking but disagree 100% with ur comments on coaching.

ur in a bar, pick up a hot girl, and go back to ur room. she begins to take off her clothes but u stop her:

"sorry, but my hourly rate is $500/hr. ull have to pay me that now or im just going to go and play some online pokerz..."
08-25-2009
shootaa is offline shootaa
Some people like being selfless and nice every once in a while as well. Verbalizing your own thoughts through coaching is also a great way to learn about things you might do wrong as well as strengthen confidence in your game and see what you do well too.

You can't sit in front of the computer coaching for all time or playing all the time. I'd say my hourly is definitely higher than what I charge to coach someone, but I'd also say that the types of games I choose to play in and people I play aren't always available, whereas shitty / easy 400nl games run 24/7.

Sometimes recharging from poker by hooking up with the girl or head shotting people in halo 3 is +Ev too, it's all about balance and too much of either is going to be wrong as far as balancing making money with life happiness EV with lethargy.

Asking your friends $500 to hang out is a pretty good example. Nobody is going to pay that you idiots, even if you're Bob Saggot. Friends are just a great part about being alive and something you can't give a monetary value, in fact, I probably have a lot less money than a ton of people with the same skills I have just because I rarely play more than 30k hands a month. I also know that I'm a lot happier because I'm having good times on the reg.
08-25-2009
Irishman07 is offline Irishman07
what are you driving?
08-25-2009
sh58 is offline sh58
sh58's Avatar
i agree, coaching is generally a bad idea. the worst idea is a NL100-200 guy coaching a 25NL player. he will just be coaching bad habits in all probability and the guy will need more coaching when he gets to NL100-200

i used to coach about a year ago. at the time i thought it was a bargain (charged about $150/hour). i used to be earning about $200-300/hour at the time playing, but liked the lower variance of coaching. i was a winning player at the time, and had alot of experience teaching, so could articulate my thoughts well etc, but i was terrible at poker really, and my former students probabaly aren't much better off then they were before the coaching

nowadays i have quit, because i want to keep my secrets to myself and play instead.
08-25-2009
JEM87 is offline JEM87
JEM87's Avatar
hehe good some comments. i wasn't taking personal shots at anyone, just voicing my thoughts on coaching and staking.

shootaa believe it or not i'm a pretty nice and selfless person too. but i guess it just never crossed my mind that for some people, a good break from poker could be coaching poker. everyone is different though, makes sense that some just enjoy it. but you guys can't disagree that a lot of coaches either aren't qualified, or are doing it wrong, right?

irishman, bmw 135i stock. i get really excited whenever someone wants to race cause i have no idea how i'll do vs. some cars lol. only got mine 3 months ago
08-25-2009
jcl87 is offline jcl87
i agree the number of coaches is retarded. but yeah i do think a lot of ppl think too much in terms of opportunity cost when they become winning players which is just retarded. the only time i do it is when i want to catch a cab but feel guilty doing so since I could just leave 10 minutes earlier usually. i just play 10 minutes more and say it's a +EV decision to do so :P
08-25-2009
shootaa is offline shootaa
JEM I agree. I just kind of assume that it's their responsibility to have a clue before they have someone hire them for something and vice versa. Like the student get a graph from the coach of hands played or look them up on tableratings, something so you're not just hiring someone worse than your own mom to coach you on how to beat 200nl.
08-25-2009
klink- is offline klink-
Updated 08-25-2009 at 06:11 PM by klink-
i 100% disagree with your arguments against staking, especially for mtts. i think you underestimate tournament variance, at the point where extremely good and successful players that do have a lot of money are still backed. Its obviously because they want to have some utility with the money they currently have, there are a decent number of people who are backed to play mtts, but also back other players. Its tough to be rolled to play an entire wsop + a bunch of live 10k events, most people don't have 1+ million to their name, but still have a ridiculous roi in those events that makes not playing them burning money (i.e. i would say that there are 100s of people who have an extremely high roi in wsop main event that don't play it, esessnetially burning 5-10k worth of equity minimum.)

If you had say something like 500k in your name, and could get a 60/40 live + online deal (or even like a 70/30 deal which i think someone like shaun deeb does have atm), and have 500k to with whatever you pleased (like buy a house/condo/car or invest or back other players), where you would need probably a 400k-500k bankroll set aside to be playing the stakes you are playing leaving you with very little flexibility in money management. Even for me, i sometimes have to sell action in playing full sunday schedule or ftops/wcoop, even though i do have a decent amount of money, just because im not really willing to risk 4-5k every sunday, or say close to 15-20k worth of buyins over 2 weeks when wcoop runs, or like 25k worth of wsop buyins. However, there is no way im not going to be playing these events just based on my expected roi, its too much to pass up.

there is a really good thread in MTTc about being in makeup where the discussion diverts to backing in general. it may be confusing as to why someone like shaun deeb is still backed to play the 3r with all his tourney success, but it logically does make sense.
08-25-2009
playforfoodz is offline playforfoodz
i disagree about tournament staking, but totally agree w/ everything else.
08-25-2009
grogheadflow is online now grogheadflow
grogheadflow's Avatar
Lots of coaches are bad, usually as players but often just at being able to properly analyse a student's game, notice leaks, offer advice and fix leaks.

There's tons of the 2p2 midstakes guys you hear about where the student has basically got nothing out of it. I include myself as one the students.

However, some coaches are brilliant. We know who they are and they're usually headline coaches/ video makers for training sites. I really don't think it's something you can do on the cheap if you're serious about crushing 200nl+.

As for MTT staking, I take the reverse view that whatever small ROI the staker gets on his investment is cancelled out by the probability of getting scammed and/ or never getting around to being paid. Plus the time spent analysing, administrating, researching, chasing up staking deals comes straight out of your hourly, which for a decent midstakes guy isn't ever going to be worth it.
08-25-2009
JEM87 is offline JEM87
JEM87's Avatar
klink, true. fair enough. saying that staking and coaching are both useless was wrong and a bit of an exaggeration.

do you also think an MTT player with no/very small bankroll should just go ahead and get a stake for small-mid online MTTs? it just makes no sense to me that these people don't just grind up a BR playing something else. The 100+r can wait a few months guys, everyone who plays that is decent anyways.
08-25-2009
klink- is offline klink-
it obviously depends on what you think your ev is if you were to play more/larger buyins. The thing is that Sunday majors and even smaller mtts are just as soft if not softer than like 36/180s type tourneys. I think there is a difference from being staked for sundays, and up to 50rs and 200fo than being rolled for those, yet getting staked for 1ks and 200rs etc, cause those fields are going to be a lot tougher, than if you compare the sunday millon/750k to 36/180s or 50fo on weekdays.

i.e. if you can play like 400 worth of buyins at X% roi or 4k worth of buyins at X% roi when you only get to keep 40%, the choice is pretty clear imo. You essentially 2x your expected profit when backed, even though it might be higher variance.
08-25-2009
MYNAMEIZGREG is offline MYNAMEIZGREG
"but you guys can't disagree that a lot of coaches either aren't qualified, or are doing it wrong, right?"

"I just kind of assume that it's their responsibility to have a clue before they have someone hire them for something and vice versa."

Good points John and Reid both.

I would say that *many* coaches should not be charging the amount that they do. I want to clarify this statement immediately by saying the reason I believe this to be true is because of the typical gap between the ability to play a certain way and the ability to thoroughly explain why you are doing that. In fewer words, many poker players cannot explain what they are doing well enough where a student would absorb the "how to's" of THINKING as opposed to the "how to's" of PLAYING. (Plug time: At Leggo or other training sites, you can see what a lesson will look like because you are hearing how the coach conveys information in the videos. Come to think of it, I think this would be an interesting thing for a student to ask a potential coach who doesn't work for a training site -- have him make a 10 min sample video showcasing this thought process).

I coach because I get enjoyment out of doing it. I usually have 1-2 students at a time, so you form a bond with them. After a while, the coaching goes on the backburner -- some of the best friends I have who also play poker were former students of mine.

I also like getting a guaranteed hourly rate. This is more of a preference thing. The higher the stakes you play, the more valuable a guaranteed rate is because the higher the variance of playing.

There are more reasons I'm sure, but it's dinner time for me.
 
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