Leggo Poker Every Tool You Need To Win

MYNAMEIZGREG

Don't ever take sides with anyone against the Family again. Ever.

Mar
03
2010
Coaching Thoughts
Posted in Poker | View Comments (49)
 

Recently, it seems as though there as been a decent push against coaching in the form of stuff like random posts on 2p2. The training sites are then burnt at the stake for not protecting players against coaches that may not develop on all of a student's dreams. Ironically, training sites do the most out of everything out there for coaching.

I'll use myself as an example. I've been making videos since late 2007, among the longest of anyone out there. If I had to guess, I would say that I have make more high stakes (5/10+) videos than anyone else online (I just counted -- there are 35 of those such videos on Leggo and I really, really, doubt someone has more). I've coached a laundry list of individuals and taken many of them up the chain from midstakes to highstakes. I get so much satisfaction from seeing someone work hard and improve. There has yet to be a student who has thought my coaching wasn't worth it -- I say this because I truly pride myself on providing a quality product. The one constant that I almost always hear from prospective students is: "I've seen your videos and I think you explain your thought process the best/among the best out of all the videos I've watched." Let's face it: coaching isn't about how well someone plays poker. That's a REQUIREMENT. The good news is you literally get to watch and determine if someone is good from their videos! (Luckily, I own everyone in my 5/10 videos, examples: 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6). I have no sympathy for anyone who jumps on a coach, knowing very little about him, and not being confident on his abilities to play poker. If you are unsure, watch their videos and speak to people. Ask them questions in their threads and see if you are getting the responses that will make you feel satisfied!

Once you determine that they have the ability to play winning poker when they choose to, you must now determine if they have the ability to teach winning poker. Many potentially coaches fail point a, but most fail point b. When I saw posts attacking training sites, I slapped my head and said, "Wow, well, training sites give prospective students the closest thing to a test drive of a coaching session there is in the poker world!"

I would say that if a coach makes good or great videos, that's generally enough to assume that you will have a great coaching experience. However, if you really need more certainty, just ask him to give a few references of past or present students. Ask them at what level they started, where they are now, what difference coaching has made, and if the whole thing was worth it. The last bit of clarification you are looking for here is a coach's ability to take someone else's game (which is most likely fundamentally different than his own), and evolve it along it's own path.

I made this post because I coach and I am damn proud of the effort I put into it. So, I think it's a joke when someone takes a torch and lights the fire in the form of a 2p2 thread saying something to the effect of "I know someone who had a bad coaching experience, so coaching in general is a scam."

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03-03-2010
Rajmaster is offline Rajmaster
the guy blasting you and your other coaches on 2+2, if you look at his post history hes currently posting in Micro nl. He's a 10nl grinder, yet on 2+2 for 3 years
03-03-2010
arturboruc is online now arturboruc
this isnt a personal dig at you but come on.

anyone whos been succesfull at poker knows coaching is a scam. just admit it. it annoys me so much people trying to deny it. theres as much relevant material for potential students for $20 a month. with unlimited access to videos made by several top quality coaches.

coaches dellude people into thinking if they spend a few k on them they will reveal some secret of poker that will allow them to go onto crush high stakes. yeh somtimes the students will go on to do well but they could of gathered the information you coach them for a lot less money.

ive been asked to coach before but i refuse to do it on principle that it is a total scam. where else in the world would you find so many fools handing out $600 and hour to some arragant ego driving kid who feels he has the right to charge this. it just shows how the poker world is so dettached from reality.

its sickening
03-03-2010
TrevRob is offline TrevRob
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I think you're a great video producer and I look forward to your videos. In regards to if coaching is a scam or not, well that's not for me to decide. It certain has helped my game but it was also from MSNL friends just willing to help me. I'm hoping your referring to the having the most videos think\g as only on Leggo, because if not your delusional . Also, I'll agree that your videos are great and you've crushed in them, but you seem to have a bit of an ego when saying you own everyone in them when its a small sample size and that's kinda the purpose of making videos (we assume you can crush that limit, just like every instructor). Nobody is doubting your not a great instructor and therefor I'd like to see you focus more on valid reasons for coaching opposed to honking your own horn and just defending without reasons.

With that said, poker is an investment and at some point, if we want to get better we must invest in ourselves. I think people know they can invest $30 a month for a training site but aren't understanding what investing more in a coach will do for them, how it'll effect their bankroll, when they can expect to see results, etc. These are the things I think they need to hear.

P.S - Please put out another video already .
03-03-2010
TwoSHAE is offline TwoSHAE
i'm not sure which post you are referring to specifically, but if it is cftw's, I think he is almost entirely correct in everything he said. It's not specifically coaching, but PREDATORY coaching, where they are charging far too much for their services and using small samples of heaters from 2008 to prove they are good at poker now
03-03-2010
Kesky is offline Kesky
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I like your videos and I really like Leggo as a site.

However, all that you wrote would have come across much better and much more sincere if you had bothered to explain your results, or at least what ptr shows as your results. ''I've crushed in every video...'' rings hollow with a ptr as yours.

Also, I have been reading your blog for a long time, and you have come across as a likable, confident guy. I stumbled upon your results when somebody made a thread about them in the forum (to which you haven't replied, btw) and I was shocked. There never was a mention of a downswing on your blog.

Also. made a thread about coaching in the Leggo forums asking some general questions and experiences about coaching, and only two Leggo coaches bothered replying. A thread about coaching on a site that sells poker coaching. Two. Replies.
03-03-2010
Isura is offline Isura
Good advice, I agree. I've started doing free 30 minute consults with prospective students, to ensure we're on the same page and the match is right.
03-03-2010
malfaire is offline malfaire
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Flat out: I think a lot of people who receive coaching and walk away disappointed could possibly be not giving it their all. I've had a couple coaches in the past who were great players with good thought processes. They were pretty hands off guys, though, and I didn't seek them out as much as I should. As such, they'd show up, review whatever / sweat, collect $, and peace out.

Looking back on the experiences now, I certainly feel as though I'm to blame for that. I didn't hold up my part of the bargain by working hard as a student. I make myself very visible to my coach now because he encouraged me to do so if I wanted to get better. The few guys I coach, I tell them that it's not my job to get them to the next level -- it's both of our jobs. If they're not consciously following my advice and putting in hard work, they won't make it. That being said, that's why I don't just accept anyone. Part of the allure of coaching is to see students do well; I'm not going to spend my time coaching someone who won't be holding up their end of the bargain.
03-03-2010
MYNAMEIZGREG is offline MYNAMEIZGREG
Hey Guys,

Nice posts. I'm gonna respond and add some of my thoughts
03-03-2010
MYNAMEIZGREG is offline MYNAMEIZGREG
"Coaching isn't worth it monetarily": I just disagree. I mean, it's about the numbers. If you play a very modest 25k hands a month at 5/10, and your high stakes coach makes your winrate increase by a modest 1 PTBB/100 (let's ignore extra $ from moving up or anything else), over the next six months that's $30,000. Let's not even get into the value of someone moving up in stakes. I'll touch more on something else in a moment.

Me "owning" people/sample size of videos: I wasn't really serious about "owning," the same way I joked "luckily." . I don't think that sample size of videos is really relevant, because we can pick up on even the "hidden" positive variance that people have pretty easily. For me at least, it's about being able to understand whether or not what is being presented to you can be extrapolated over a longer term and be consistent winning poker.

Predatory Coaches, Students Putting in Effort: I'm really not sure what to say other than: many students expect that the coaches are going to wave a wand and they will be winning HSNL regs in two weeks. This is certainly untrue, but the skill in the ability to nurture and develop a player is under-appreciated in a coach. It takes a lot of both participants putting in effort to get results.

If you are unsure if your potential coach is going to do all the things that need to be done for you to win, figure it out for sure or don't pick them. Take some responsibility for your important decisions you are going to make. If you are sure, then take some responsibility for the important decisions you made. There are bad seeds everywhere, some poker coaches are no different. I mean, be smart and go to some length to figure some of this stuff out beforehand. BestBuy isn't obligated to stop me from shopping at RadioShack.
03-03-2010
MYNAMEIZGREG is offline MYNAMEIZGREG
Updated 03-03-2010 at 04:29 PM by MYNAMEIZGREG
My results: I'm not sure what thread you are talking about, because this issue came up in my last video thread and I addressed it. To reiterate: I haven't played NLHE seriously on FTP for over 18 months, and there was an update where I went from +100k to -2xxk without playing a hand. I haven't posted any non-vague numbers in my blog in forever on purpose -- all my poker efforts are kept as private as I can make them, and if that means playing on different sites, or different games, or even live, that's what it means.

At the end of the day, I make videos and I have threads where people can argue against me. I can't imagine anything for fair for someone to determine if they want to keep watching my videos, or stop; or receive coaching.

*Also another note on "absurd" hourlies: A good coach puts in extra time. All my students have my AIM, my email, and US students have my phone number. I get sent hands all the time, and no one is ever on the clock during lessons. There is no "charge" for this; in fact, the amount I charge is purposely priced to weed out prospective students will might not work hard. A special shout out to Josh for putting in all the extra time he does and asking every single hard question out there .
03-03-2010
malfaire is offline malfaire
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"Take some responsibility for your important decisions you are going to make." This.
03-03-2010
shootaa is offline shootaa
haters gonna hate
03-03-2010
arturboruc is online now arturboruc
but dont you think that people who are paying loads of cash for your wisdom deserve to know your results in full detail. ESPECIALLY RECENT RESULTS.
03-03-2010
Branman is offline Branman
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Sounds like you just completely changed the basis of your criticism of coaching artur.
03-03-2010
steel108 is offline steel108
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Coaching is only as valuable as the amount of effort both sides put in.

BTW Greg, you need to get your nuggetz to coach.
03-03-2010
hobiejuan1 is offline hobiejuan1
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I paid a Cardrunners coach $175 to make a HU video for me and two weeks later the same video was on Cardrunners site. CR's coaching coordinator said he thought it was perfectly ethical.

Agree with everything Malfaire said. You get out of coaching what you put into it
03-03-2010
arturboruc is online now arturboruc
"Sounds like you just completely changed the basis of your criticism of coaching artur."

even if he was crushing the prices charged are ridiculous. the fact he isnt, makes it more ridiculous.
03-03-2010
flaviusO is offline flaviusO
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people are coaching cuz they aren't making money anymore.. good poker players don't coach, they play poker!
03-03-2010
JamesMa is offline JamesMa
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@ hobiejuan I think that CR coach is a bit of an asshole to do that.

@ artuboruc, you seem to have a problem with the price of coaching so dont pay it then. As far as coaching being a scam, I think that is quite far from the truth ( if you get a credible coach who actually isnt a scammer). Yes personal coaching is more expensive that videos and that reasoning is obvious since you get so much more value out of personal training than videos.
03-03-2010
Branman is offline Branman
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The market will bear what coaching is worth. If the information available is 'perfect' then nobody is getting scammed, people are just exchanging values which they believe to be equitable. I.E., I'm going to pay you a high hourly price now in order to distract you from actually playing long enough such that you can teach me how to increase my hourly. I.E. I sink 1k/5k/10k into this coaching upfront in the hope that I can actively attain the skills to make 50k/100k/350k a year from now. You do NOT get from videos what you do from good, or even mediocre coaching. I'm really not married to economics and I think it's a rather soulless discipline in a lot of ways, but dudes, this shit is 101.
03-03-2010
TrevRob is offline TrevRob
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I think from what I'm gathering, the main problem people have with coaching are the rates. Is it fair for a $100nl player to have to pay $500/hr to receive coaching from someone like Greg or Shoota? In theory, probably yes. In reality, no. The reason being that for the coaching to make a large impact on their game, they'll have to invest several hours into them, which is almost a bankroll. For a rate they could afford, they'd likely find someone who wins at their current stakes, whom they may be just as knowledgeable as.

Coaching isn't a scam at all. The main problem lies in coaches intentions and their inflated rates. I remember a few years ago great players such as Stinger promoted coaching for something like $300/hr. Somewhere along the way, someone charged something huge and everyone decided to follow suit. Everyone decided they'd hop in on it and charge something more than their hourly. This created a heirachy of coaching which in turn created a gap for players seeking coaches which was too large to achieve. Their rates were only suited for rich people or people who likely played their stakes.
03-03-2010
TrevRob is offline TrevRob
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In general, I think coaching rates need to drop and drop significantly. Good coaches are ones who like helping others progress and will do so at a reasonable rate for those players. Coaching isn't supposed to be a substitute for playing, therefore your're not entitled to your hourly. Coaching should be done because you enjoy helping others progress and not to make variance free hourly rates. My best relationships are with MSNL-HSNL player whom I never recieved "official" coaching from but they let me send as many questions as I want and they help me. We've become friends and it's an open relationship. Not once have they asked for funds in exchange. They enjoy helping me progress, which is what it should be all about; I've had coaches in the past and many overcharged, wanted everything documented such as me emailing them questions or asking during our sessions. I felt pressured to not send them questions on IM outside of messaging. My advice to people is to watch videos, be active in forums, and make friends with better players. This invaluable and will go a long long way. If you're rich, overrolled,and been struggling for a long time, I'd then turn to a coach. It's simply too hard to gain value from these coaches with their rates compared to your likely bankroll.

Hoobie - I'm not surprised CR did this. Pretty scummy and prob continues to happen.
03-04-2010
Branman is offline Branman
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^^ that rambling post makes literally no sense. You have this abstract sense of poker ethics that can't be found in any other 'industry' that I'm aware of. This is business, this is how it works. You talk about fair and not fair, entitlement etc. Coaching isn't about philanthropy. Prospective students don't want to get poker out of some benign intellectual curiosity. If they did they'd be playing chess, which is a superior game. They want to make MONEY. So the rules of opportunity cost apply fully. The market is free, nobody is cornering it. People pay gladly and they likely are making incredibly good investments with ROI's unheard of in traditional markets. If people were pissed about rates they wouldn't pay and therefore coaches wouldn't be able to command the fees that they do. And your gap theory of coaching is silly man. Why should a small stakes grinder need coaching from the best regs at highstakes? How about just finding a good midstakes coach who will cost a fraction as much? Think econ man, you're seriously making no sense.
03-04-2010
TrevRob is offline TrevRob
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^ From this perspective and outlook on coaching, it's a scam then. I'll try to quickly explain the gap. Years ago, the tip top online pros didn't even charge close to $400/hr for coaching. Coaching wasn't even popular back then. Along the way, it became popular and everyone wanted in on it and charged outrageous rates because people were willing to pay them out of hope of being the next big thing. Wheres the gap come in? Well, in the past coaching for $100nl used to cost about $40-80/hr from winning MSNL players. This was reasonable as it didn't cut into their bankroll. Now days almost anyone certified to coach is charging around $300 + per hour. As you can see, the gap has widened. Now for decent coaching you have to pay a much larger portion of your bankroll for coaching simply because it became an industry standard for everyone to try to market themselves with variance free money. The demand went up, but there was a surplus of coaching ,yet the prices still rose. Any coach who is coaching purely to make money is a coach that I wouldn't consider. I can agree with a lot of what your saying, but my main argument lies in the fact that many people are not getting a product thats worth the price in relation to their bankrolls, regardless of how good the coach is as long as he's charging a high rate.

Coaching isn't playing and isn't a substitute for playing. Therefore coaches are not entitled to their hourly poker rate for coaching or anywhere close to it. A good coach does so because he enjoys helping people and is good at it, money is a plus, but shouldn't be the motive. If you're willing to coach, your time isn't as valuable as you think or you'd be playing otherwise. Basically coaching rates need to drop back to where people who need coaching can afford them and actually get value out of it. Right now, the prices are so high that the people who need them can't afford them and the ones who can, likely don't need them.

Sorry for rant!
03-04-2010
PlsTilt is offline PlsTilt
greg, without doubt your video's have made me a better player. I never had coaching from you, but watching your vids and commenting on them has helped me shape my thoughts and improve my poker skills.

Thanks a lot for all effort you put in teaching!
03-04-2010
LuckyDevil is offline LuckyDevil
Phil Galfond puts out 4-6 vids each month. His site has been out almost 2 years now. If by some miracle you beat him in more 5/10+ videos it won't be for long at the rate his site is going ...and I personally learn a lot more from his videos then yours.
03-04-2010
shootaa is offline shootaa
All the other things meant to discount the worth of coaching aside... trev, you obviously have never had a good coach. Almost every single one (all as far as I know) of my students would be happy to tell you it's been worth what they've paid for and I've seen all them make much more money than when we started. It's not $500/hour if you're playing 1knl in the lesson, it's $500 - my hourly at 1knl, which is going to take out a pretty good chunk of that, not to mention, as Greg said, the future EV of your investment. I could see the lesson paying for itself in a week easily (1 "free" lesson / week). If you think about this like a poker player or an investor, it's a bit easier to understand what you're actually buying.

I also have a list of people who play 100nl who I've turned down for coaching because I felt like it's too much of their roll to be spending for the information that they could get from a coach who currently plays lower and is charging less. A 100nl player doesn't need to know the intricacies of a lot of spots that a higher stakes player needs to know, they need to focus more on fundamentals. I know Greg has turned people away, too, for these reasons. We both have integrity, and I don't want to speak for him about everything you have been complaining about (with certainly little or no knowledge of the subject matter), but I take pride in trying extremely hard to make sure all my students successes outweigh even their own goals for themselves. If you don't believe me, look at my blog comments on any post having to do with coaching or PM any of my students and ask them if it's "worth it".
03-04-2010
Razboynik is offline Razboynik
Coaching is necessary in anything to improve your skill level, and coaches don't have to be world champions to teach well and improve your ability. A successful player that also coaches, will never charge 'chump change' to teach a student. It's just not worth the time and effort. Also, if you pay peanuts, you get monkeys.
Of course, there are good, bad, and ugly coaches. We are human, after all....
A coach will direct your efforts in the right direction; you will not get 'spoon fed' information.
I had some group coaching from Greg a couple of years ago and it improved my game significantly.

The question is how effective are videos in training ?
Can videos turn a SSNL player and in to a HSNL player ?
03-04-2010
Maximus13 is offline Maximus13
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A coach should charge more the more he is in demand. Its basic commerce, if you services are in demand raise your prices.
This is the real world. Wake UP!
In any commerce, your going to have wanna be dudes, that believe there product is good, sell there product like its good, even though its complete shit, and possibly drag others reputations w/them through the mud.
If you don't like what someone is charging DON"T buy there services. The envy and jealousy in 2=2 is unreal, so little respect or admiration.

However If a training a site is promoting a coach, under there brand name it is there responsibility to make sure the product they are putting forth is a quality product. They should also be happy to reimburse anyone who has felt they have been cheated or scammed, and happy to stop promoting any coach that is getting a number of complaints. Once again basic business. Training sites are the key to keeping the business honest not to blame, however if a coach does f up the site should also be held responsible.
03-04-2010
MYNAMEIZGREG is offline MYNAMEIZGREG
art -- I've let these blog comments run their course, and everyone got to say what they wanted to. However, you're just rehashing your arguments in progressively more angry forms. We understand what you are saying and why you believe it to be the case, but please refrain from more of the same posts in the future.

Quote:
id bet that many (if not most) of the top high stake regulars and people who crush the midstakes have never spunked of $thousands$ on coaching.
This is certainly not true. Assuming you're talking 5/10+, I've personally coached and still do coach some of the top regulars.

I have spent lots of coaching and have gotten coaching all through my poker career (that would be 4 years, about 3 of coaching). I currently have three coaches myself.



Great discussion so far everyone.
 
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