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sauce123

Nov
03
2011
An argument for (weak) vegetarianism
Posted in Poker | View Comments (45)
 

First- there's a famous article by Peter Singer from which most of the arguments in this blog are directly taken or at the very least inspired by. See it here: http://www.utilitarian.net/singer/by/1979----.htm

Peter Singer is a utilitarian. Very broadly speaking, this means that 'the fundamental moral principle is to take actions which maximize general happiness.' What I want to distinguish from the outset here, though, is that whether you are a utilitarian in general or Singer's particular version, or anything else, one of the main arguments in Equality for Animals still holds for you.

That was to get your attention. I mean something a bit more precise. First, if you choose to accept Singer's utilitarianism, then it's abundantly clear that you are committed to not eating meat, at least of "sentient" creatures. Sentience means something like 'the ability to feel pain or pleasure' and presupposes some type of central nervous system with which feeling gets done. Sentient: cows, pigs, goats, chickens, probably some fish. Not sentient: rocks, potatoes, kale etc. Probably not sentient: clams, mussels, bees etc. It should also be noted here, that not all sentient things get "counted" equally here; it's worse to harm a cow than a chicken in virtue of the fact that the cow has a more developed nervous system/emotional apparatus. Singer also makes a strong case that if you call yourself a utilitarian of any flavour, then you are going to be committed to considering the interests of (sentient) animals in some fashion (which might be slightly different from his own).

I don't care (for the purposes of this blog) about any of Singer's arguments which suppose any form of utilitarianism as premise. What I am concerned with is a more modest argument from Equality for Animals which I'll call here the Argument from Marginal Cases (AMC).

The AMC is an example of a type of argument I'm calling (and this might be standard, I'm not sure) an argument from consistency. Arguments from consistency take as premises beliefs we already hold and derive from them a contradiction. If we are rational people, we are faced with a dilemma: either one belief or the other leading to the contradiction must go (after all, we can't say we believe 'X and not X'). I think I like arguments from consistency because of my empiricism (their premises are taken from a description of our actual beliefs). They also tend to be straightforward to argue, without a lot of logical filigree.

Preamble aside, here's the Argument from Marginal Cases (AMC):

First premise: Making moral judgments on the basis of purely physical properties is unjustified and constitutes a moral wrong. By 'purely physical properties' I am trying to string together some words to gather up all of the "isms" - racism, sexism, etc which we think are wrong. For an example of an unjustified judgment 'Only white males should be able to vote.' Being white and male does not endow one with any praise or blameworthy features (note: you should separate physical characteristics like 'whiteness', 'maleness' from cultural characteristics in order to make this clear) in of itself - for instance white males do not have larger and more sophisticated brains or some special talent at voting well on the basis of their whiteness or maleness. As a corollary to this, we may sometimes assign praise or blame on the basis of other properties (for instance, mental development, intelligence etc). To use the voting example again, we might say that only people who can pass a test on citizenship should be able to vote. Note though, that this corollary is not necessary for the argument, I'm just adding it to round things out a bit!

Second Premise: It's wrong to torture, kill, or eat a mentally disabled human or a human infant.

Third Premise: Eating meat is morally permissible in the ways we currently consume meat: for example buying ground beef in the supermarket for dinner.

Argument: Many of the animals we habitually eat (pigs, cows) have equivalent mental capacities to severely disabled humans and infants/young toddlers. I want to make it clear that this is just a fact- if you want to disagree here go read the relevant science. If we accept premise two, we think it's wrong to do things like factory farm mentally challenged humans for our gustatory pleasure. But if we accept premise three, we think it's totally OK to factory farm things like cows for our gustatory pleasure. But if cows have the same relevant mental capacities as the marginal humans we don't factory farm, then the property with which we decide what to factory farm and what not to factory farm seems to be the property that cows look like cows, and mentally challenged humans look like humans. 'Looking like Cow-ness' and 'Looking like human-ness' are clearly purely physical properties. But if we accept premise one, purely physical properties are not acceptable for making moral judgments (and what/what not to kill for our gustatory pleasure certainly constitutes a moral judgement!).

Conclusion: So by P1, either it's acceptable to grow and eat marginal humans and all animals, or it's acceptable to grow and eat neither. But we hold P2 and P3, which says that it is acceptable to grow/eat all animals but not all marginal humans. Therefore, holding P1, P2 and P3 results in contradiction.

So here's the difficulty. We can resolve our contradiction by giving up P1 P2 or P3, or we can resolve the contradiction by finding a flaw in the argument. Which premise is it easiest for people to give up and remain rational/consistent? Where is the flaw in the argument?

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Comments
11-03-2011
vinivici9586 is offline vinivici9586
Argument looks solid, but I don't think many people could agree with third premise. There are a lot of situations where eating meat could be construed as immoral or non-utilitarian from a meta-human perspective. To give two quick examples, goose liver (where geese are tortured through force feeding) is a highly controversial food. Second, we're not allowed to over-consume species that are endangered/important to the ecosystem. Hunting laws have existed for a long time because of this.
11-03-2011
jupiter is offline jupiter
Flaw: sentience isn't the only factor in deciding to eat meat.
11-03-2011
The_End is offline The_End
A cow is a cow because it came out of a cow.

It seems logical that there's a contradiction when premise 2 says: It's not okay to eat humans and premise 3 says: It's okay to eat humans.
11-03-2011
sauce123 is offline sauce123
ViniVici- You're certainly right that there may already be cases where we think eating meat isn't OK. What the argument brings out though is that in order to be consistent, we have to have the same 'it's OK to eat' standards for marginal persons and sentient animals. We don't. I'm going to edit premise three though in order to reflect this more accurately.
11-03-2011
sauce123 is offline sauce123
jupiter- I don't understand what you're getting at here. What are some (relevant) factors besides sentience which justify our differing attitudes towards marginal humans and developed animals?
11-03-2011
sauce123 is offline sauce123
The_End- I'm not sure what you're saying here. Premise 2 says it's not okay to eat humans. Premise three says it's OK to eat animals, humans aren't even mentioned ...
11-03-2011
Xeta23 is offline Xeta23
Well, I think this is obviously a valid argument but why limit it to what kind of meat we eat? The exact same reasoning can (should?) be extended so that our ultimate means (ie what our decisions are based on) in life should be to either maximally exploit and manipulate anybody and anything (not just black people, women, animals) OR to completely dedicate ourselves for the welfare and fulfillment of something other than our body, and not even just humans. So I think this kind of thinking is actually heavily related to religion/spirituality. Basically my point is, it's not enough to be consistent, we have to figure out what that consistence is based on for it to be "rational". In the context of utilitarianism (which I think is a pretty trivial concept), we have to know why we should take actions that maximize "general happiness" (and also what general happiness is, assuming it's something beyond just material welfare). So to answer your question, there isn't a flaw with that argument, it's just incomplete.
11-03-2011
Xeta23 is offline Xeta23
Sorry, I wasn't trying to derail. To give a shorter answer, yes, if we are blindly accepting premise 1 and 2, we should not accept premise 3 and vice versa.
11-03-2011
The_End is offline The_End
Before the edit, the humans were included in the collection of 'meat' in the third premise and therefore 2 and 3 were immediately contradicting. Now they're not anymore.

So now 1 is only contradicting with 2 and 3 if we assume that the only difference between a mentally disabled human and an animal is the physical appearance. If there are more differences, we cannot say we are basing our decision solely on physical properties anymore. And I don't think many people would agree with that assumption.

'How is a mentally disabled human different from an animal, apart from physical properties?'

I am sure that question has many answers, and each answer could be a reason why we choose not to eat humans and do eat animals.
11-03-2011
theashman103 is offline theashman103
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An infant is a being with potential to live a very productive and purposeful life. Cows don't possess this ability.
11-03-2011
grogheadflow is offline grogheadflow
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Ashman, so you base your ethical decision to eat meat on the basis of the said being having a 'productive and purposeful life', (in your opinion) over and above the suffering inflicted ?
11-03-2011
Xeta23 is offline Xeta23
Ashman, are you also saying it's not morally wrong to torture, kill and eat a mentally disabled human? Also I really think you should define "productivity" and "purpose" or else it doesn't really make sense to say cows don't possess that ability (or that humans do).
11-03-2011
theashman103 is offline theashman103
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I didn't advocate killing cows and that we should eat meat. I'm just saying that I find an infant's life more valuable than a cow's life. Still haven't advocated killing , eating, or making anyone suffer.
11-03-2011
d2themfi is offline d2themfi
Updated 11-03-2011 at 09:25 PM by d2themfi
question- where does mike tyson fit into all of this?

D2themfi argument: steak, fish, and fowl tastes good, so Im not gonna think about it! Ha pwned!


More seriously tho-
I really dont know anything about this stuff, so pure curiosity here-

It seems to me confining a moral decision to these 3 premises must be leaving things out that you must consider (what I dont know). If thats true, what usefulness does your argument offer?

Arent we part of the greater food chain in which many other animal hunt other species of animals but not their own (I know some can cannibalize, but most dont I think). Isnt it fighting our nature not to eat other animals, and if so, is it beneficial to our ecosystem?
11-03-2011
grogheadflow is offline grogheadflow
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Quote:
'How is a mentally disabled human different from an animal, apart from physical properties?'

I am sure that question has many answers, and each answer could be a reason why we choose not to eat humans and do eat animals.''
Denny, like what? I agree also that people would attempt to give many answers, but I'm also pretty sure that they'd all just be desperate attempts to find a loophole which deems non-humans as inferior and so make it perfectly fine for us to kill them and eat them.

People can clutch at straws all day long and find inconsequential differences between them and us but you'd still be missing the most important point and the crucial similarity, that we're all sentient and can suffer. Whether or not they can go on to become mathematicians, writers or doctors is really irrelevant.

Ashman, I don't believe you to be a vegetarian. Can I assume then you partake in the killing, eating, and suffering of animals, but somehow do so without advocating it ?
11-03-2011
lostinthesaus is offline lostinthesaus
pedantic. that is all.
11-03-2011
theashman103 is offline theashman103
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"Whether or not they can go on to become mathematicians, writers or doctors is really irrelevant."

Why is it irrelevant?

fwiw, if a cheeseburger somehow was just as good and was made out of the meat of my dead grandfather, I would probably still eat barring some type of radical emotional swing.

Also, if it was up to me to decide whether or not the killing of animals should be allowed for our food consumption, I'd without a doubt say NO.

Thirdly, I'm not that big of a self-utilitarian. I foresee myself continuing to donate money to good causes(Water, hurricane relief etc.) Perhaps this is irrelevant, but I choose not to worry about having perfect principles when I will in all likelihood have left this world a better place than it was when I entered it.
11-03-2011
shootaa is offline shootaa
How is general happiness not self-referential?
11-04-2011
10K-in-Clay is offline 10K-in-Clay
The flaw in the argument in in the third premise. "Eating meat is morally permissible in the ways we currently consume meat: for example buying ground beef in the supermarket for dinner." I agree that your example of buying ground beef at a supermarket would result in a contradiction between the three premises that you laid out. There are, however, many other ways one could be a meat-eater without contradicting themselves even if they agreed with the first two premises. example: finding a dead kangaroo and eating it. Obviously, I understand the point of the argument is to say that the mass production of meat products is immoral and the way the three premises are laid out does a pretty good job of getting that point across. We just have to chalk it up as a necessary evil imo.
11-04-2011
clayton is offline clayton
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also, necessary evils are tasty
11-04-2011
grogheadflow is offline grogheadflow
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Quote:
Why is it irrelevant?
It's irrelevant to the suffering felt. If your opinion is that it's more ok to cause death and suffering to 'higher achieving' beings regardless of this fact, then that is rather shallow.

You say you don't advocate the killing, eating and suffering of animals and yet you partake in it. You say that if it were up to you 'whether or not the killing of animals should be allowed for our food consumption, I'd without a doubt say NO', and yet in your individual case it is up to you. Failure to realise this is simply a huge disconnect.
11-04-2011
Xeta23 is offline Xeta23
D2themfi, the idea is that we as the superior creatures in that ecosystem, given that it's not a matter of survival, should not exploit but protect other creatures in that ecosystem. Basically other animals get to (cuz yeah steak tastes good) eat other animals becuase they don't/can't know any better. What seperates us from them is our ability to self-restrain. You could say that it's fighting our nature whenever we choose not to cheat or steal, but it's not, it's exactly the opposite.
11-04-2011
QuartermasterT is offline QuartermasterT
Wait, you guys havn't tried "marginal human"?
11-04-2011
The_End is offline The_End
@Grog:

I don't think it's about inferiority or sentienty or suffering. It's about a human coming out of another human. That it could've been us, or our child. That society would totally disapprove. I don't think these are desperate attempts to find a loophole. I think these are by far better reasons not to eat a human than what is stated in premise 1.

Premise 1 just seems wrong (or at least very incomplete). Making judgments based on physical properties is only morally wrong in very specific cases. Our entire life is based on making decision based on physical properties. The only reason we know a cow when we see one is because of the way it looks. Noone is going to say 'Well it's wrong to say it's a cow before you talked to it, maybe it's just an ugly human.'

But regardless of whether premise 1 is wrongly stated or not. Given the reasons above, I think it's fair to say that we are not basing our decision purely on physical properties at all, thus making all three premises hold while eating animals.
11-04-2011
grogheadflow is offline grogheadflow
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Denny, making an argument to not eat a human is completely different to finding a positive argument to eat an animal. That is where the desperation usually comes in.
11-04-2011
d2themfi is offline d2themfi
xeta- I dont think that really is a good argument or maybe just a bad example. Stealing is against the law and has the consequence of getting you sent to prison if you get caught. Eating beef is not against the law.


Also you have to wonder- what if we existed in a parallel universe exactly the same as this one except that stealing was never in history considered to be bad. I.e. your mother/father never told you stealing was bad, there was no laws against it, etc.. My guess is most people would steal at any chance they got.. but maybe not


Also how would this apply to people starving? They are allowed to hunt game, and we are not since we have other food sources? Or, they should go hungry?
11-04-2011
The_End is offline The_End
Updated 11-04-2011 at 02:49 PM by The_End
Dan, I was just following the discussion on the premises.

What are positive arguments to eat any kind of food? Out of the top of my head the deciding factors would be tastiness, nutricion (fillyness?) and how healthy it is. And animal meat scores awesome.

So the only reason for some people not to eat it (apart from the fact that some people don't like the taste) is that they think the way we breed and slaughter them is inhuman. From the way of phrasing you can tell I do not agree. If anything, in the literal sense of the word, I think it is inhuman not to eat meat. When a lion doesn't eat meat, you don't call it humane. You call it sick.

Now I don't want to call vegetarians sick people, but I certainly do not think that being a vegetarian means you are morally more consistent or 'humane' (I don't know the english word for what I exactly mean, but I'm sure you get the point)
11-04-2011
Xeta23 is offline Xeta23
d2themfi, I'm talking about not stealing even when nobody's looking. Morality is different than just rules/government. As for people starving, do you personally think it is morally wrong for them to steal from other people even if they're about to starve to death? If your answer to that is yes then by that logic, yes they should go hungry rather than hunt other sentient beings.

Also, it's possible that I don't understand it well enough myself so that could be the reason my argument (or maybe explanation) wasn't great. Here's a relatively famous text on vegetarianism that might explain it better (although by no means do I think this is a perfect argument for it either): http://www.ivu.org/history/europe19b...etarianism.pdf
11-04-2011
d2themfi is offline d2themfi
I guess I tend to think about it a bit differently. I tend to think of Morals as a nice luxury to have, not something that rules every decision we make. i.e. self preservation (not starving) should always outrank morals, so the question of whether stealing to avoid starvation is moral or not is moot
11-04-2011
leggomyeggo is offline leggomyeggo
I want to make it clear that this is just a fact- if you want to disagree here go read the relevant science.

What relevant science are you speaking of? Can you provide any sort of link and/or details? I'm not saying you're incorrect, I've just never heard/read this before.

Thanks.
 
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