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sauce123

May
12
2012
Do "TAG" and "LAG" mean anything?
Posted in Poker | View Comments (10)
 

Today while biking over to play squash I got to musing about the meanings of the ubiquitous poker terms "TAG" and "LAG" which we use to rapidly describe players. I think the terms are pretty much anti-helpful; that is, they DO tell us something about a player, but what they tell us is probably worse than nothing at all. I actually like the descriptions though- we need some kind of snappy term to describe a player qualitatively- and TAG and LAG are handy acronyms. And so I don't think they need be thrown out completely but instead just repurposed a bit.

So rather than assume everyone has the same usage of these terms (which I suspect they don't) I'll just establish one to start off with. I *think* TAG and LAG were probably coined before I played poker, but as I was learning poker they were being repurposed to loosely correspond to certain ranges of preflop stats. As I first used the terms, a TAG was around 18 VPIP/ 15 PFR / 5 3bet to 24 VPIP / 19 PFR / 7 3bet, and LAG occupied a higher end somewhere before maniac. Nit was anyone less than an 18 VPIP. Keep in mind this is all 6max, and these criteria seem a bit on the tight side now. I suppose they have since been adjusted, although now we often substitute HUD stats for the TAG or LAG description for greater precision, making the terms less frequent on the forums.

The confusion crept in, both historically and currently, because people seemed to think that a preflop description either entailed or strongly suggested a corresponding postflop strategy. So, for example, the TAG player was supposed to play his TAG game preflop and then follow up with aggressive flop play to exploit his tight image (hence tight-aggressive with the aggro part supposedly corresponding to postflop). Similarly the LAG was the guy who wouldn't put on the brakes postflop. This assimilation of preflop and postflop play did a huge amount of harm to the poker community as a whole, and led to an untold amount of mistakes both in hand criticism on forums and in actual play- because of course preflop stats entail absolutely nothing about postflop play aside from the range of hands which the player has to work with after he sees the flop. Even stranger, if the 'T' in 'TAG' was to indicate the preflop strategy, and the 'AG' was to indicate the postflop strategy, then apparently the community ran out of acronyms, because almost never on the forums would a poster admit to playing the dreaded 'LAP' or 'Tight Passive,' and so in almost all cases the postflop types got lumped together and the discussion was dominated by preflop play.

I wonder if this rigid terminology helped some fundamentally unsound, and to be honest not all that tricky styles win a lot of money during the heyday of TAG and LAG's usage. A few players come to mind especially- Punketty, ADZ, on the "LAG" side, and SamH and EmpireMaker on the "TAG" side (there are players still exploiting this preflop-postflop blindness people have, but I won't mention currently active ones). The first two players were really playing loose passive- opening a ton of pots and then waiting for the nuts to put money in. The second two did indeed play tight preflop- but they played just as tight postflop, waiting for the nuts to get money in. Against the former, winning was as easy as 3betting a bunch pre and then folding to raises post, and against the latter, winning was as easy as playing reasonable hands pre and then betting when checked to.

The insensitivity to hybrid styles is why I find the terms worse than useless, because just about everyone is some sort of hybrid style! They fail to capture all of the gradations in preflop and postflop play, and miss all of the subtle differences which are critically important. Instead, people just use some "standard" set of reads with TAG and some other set with LAG, not realizing that the standard reads they employ do more harm than good.

So I found it interesting that from a game theory perspective, TAG and LAG can actually come to have an interesting and useful meaning. So, if tight is read as a deviation from optimal play on the side of being too tight with some action(s), and aggressive is read as a deviation from optimal play on the side of being too aggressive with some action(s), then TAG gets a new meaning. If I elect to play too few hands preflop, then my optimal aggression frequency postflop will increase (relative to postflop aggression frequency for an optimal preflop range) provided I'm playing an optimal opponent. So, if the 'AG' is to have meaning as an exploitative strategy, then I have to elect to play exploitably aggressive postflop even given the fact that my handrange is stronger than it should be. So, TAG means to play an exploitative strategy such that I elect to exploit my opponents by playing too tight pre, and then decide to exploit them in the exact opposite way by playing too aggro post. Weird! LAG can be analyzed the same way. I decide to play suboptimally aggro both pre and postflop to exploit my opponents.

Even this more precise way of using TAG and LAG doesn't help much. First, these are kind of weird strategies to play- where once we used to use TAG or LAG to describe pretty much everybody, now TAG and LAG just describe some kind of wacky of strategies to be employed in rare circumstances. Second, the breaking up of reads into preflop and postflop is pretty imprecise- it's fairly common for a player to be aggressive on a given street, texture, or vs a certain line, but not to be aggressive postflop as a whole.

So I suppose the way that I find TAG and LAG interesting these days is to describe the psychology of certain player types. Take for example how Ivey plays on TV cash games. If Ivey had to write down his strategy on a piece of paper, or play it online, he would probably be something like 65/30/8 playing 9 handed. In effect then, he's offering a challenge, saying "I'm gonna play so bad preflop that any .50/1$ grinder should be able to crush me. But I'm going to play so much better than you later that I'll make up for it." The attitude of playing bad and knowing it, but doing so calculatedly as bait for your opponents to me is the psychology of a LAG player. The psychology of a TAG is more like that of, say, Dan Harrington, where he's saying "I'm going to play too tight, and I know that you know that I'm playing too tight. But there is going to be some really big pot later where I have nothing, and theoretically shouldn't bluff, but I'm going to bluff anyways because I think you'll fold too big hands to me." So the TAG is the psychology of betting and raising too little in small pots in order to be bluff too much in huge pots, and to make those huge pot bluffs +EV enough to make up for all the folding. To me at least, these represent two fairly common types of players, and using the words to point at attitudes rather than stats makes them useful qualitatively, instead of being shorthand for something quantitative, and misleading shorthand at that.

Me? I just play solid.

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Comments
05-12-2012
aejones is online now aejones
aejones's Avatar
you had me up until you called em2 and samh TAGs instead of nits
05-12-2012
luckychewy is offline luckychewy
labels are generally restricting and ultimately misleading because of what they exclude, especially in the scope of anything as complex that rewards creativity and problem solving like poker.
05-12-2012
reverie is offline reverie
Like.
05-12-2012
cntgetmedown is offline cntgetmedown
cntgetmedown's Avatar
Well written post and content. This is part of the reason why I think a HUD can sometimes make you play worse, if you are using the stats to make too broad generalizations about your opponents instead of actually paying attention to how they actually play. Alot of people will argue that having more information is always better, but this is not always true.
05-12-2012
JamesMa is offline JamesMa
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well put, good advice in this post. I do think most players don't take advantage of their image enough when playing but I'm not sure how many people pick up on what you said about postflop tendencies having little to do with preflop ones. Not that long ago on forums, ppl would just post vpip/pfr and be asking about a flop checkraise spot for example and everybody generally answered without questioning further as to what the postflop statistics were like.
05-13-2012
BobboFitos is offline BobboFitos
Quote:
The psychology of a TAG is more like that of, say, Dan Harrington, where he's saying "I'm going to play too tight, and I know that you know that I'm playing too tight. But there is going to be some really big pot later where I have nothing, and theoretically shouldn't bluff, but I'm going to bluff anyways because I think you'll fold too big hands to me."
I can assure you that when Harrington plays a big pot it's because he thinks he has the best hand
05-13-2012
Mr.Bragi is offline Mr.Bragi
I think Sauce is referring to how it is said that Harrington won the WSOP back in 1995. There's a video on youtube where someone folds AQ pre to a squeeze where Harrington had something like 62o. That is, imo, a "too big hand" and also a "bluff". http://youtu.be/hnv1EJCKFNo

Anyhow, that is not what's relevant about the post.

Quote:
So I suppose the way that I find TAG and LAG interesting these days is to describe the psychology of certain player types.
I agree with you, but I think the labels TAG and LAG are also interesting when you think about the role they play in trying to establish the opponent's bluff tendencies. For example; when a perceived as TAG opponent three barrels on a board where the flush didn't hit by the river, people would always give him credit. It's almost as if, unconsciously, it is stated that TAGs had an overwhelming amount of value combos in their ranges and hence were poorly balanced; and with LAGs precisely the opposite would be true: since they are very unbalanced and the flush didn't hit, I call.

Actually both labels presuppose that the opponent we label either a TAG or a LAG plays poorly from a balance point of view. You actually see people saying "He's a good, solid TAG player" which almost always translates as: he is aware of his image hence he can bluff. So, from that point of view, they're both pejorative.
05-13-2012
simon2312 is offline simon2312
I think under the assumption that the AG means a derivation away from the optimum, arguments against these categories as general terms are easy to find. Yet, what if we assume that the AG simply means an aggression near the optimum? Then, suddenly the terms become (somewhat) useful.

Although I agree that these terms are overused to categorize players and justify plays, I think they are the first necessary step in analyzing any opponent since the aggression is dependent on the range of hands opponents play after all (eg. in HEM, a player with 70 vpip and a 1.5 aggression is way more aggro than a 25vpip player with a 1.5 aggression).
05-13-2012
FabledHero is offline FabledHero
"aejones

you had me up until you called em2 and samh TAGs instead of nits"

Lol

"cntgetmedown

Well written post and content. This is part of the reason why I think a HUD can sometimes make you play worse, if you are using the stats to make too broad generalizations about your opponents instead of actually paying attention to how they actually play. Alot of people will argue that having more information is always better, but this is not always true."

Like you said having more information should be better unless you're lazy or whatever and don't pay attention to how people play and just rely on the stats. A good solution would be only to use the stats for preflop ranges mainly, then postflop focus on obtaining as many reads as you can.
05-13-2012
vinivici9586 is offline vinivici9586
Updated 05-13-2012 at 11:17 PM by vinivici9586
i think a more accurate description for tag/lag would be 2 variables (one for preflop, one for postflop). tight pre, tight post = nit, loose pre, tight post = nit in disguise, tight pre loose post = fps'r or nit that spews, loose pre, loose post = lag

and of course tightness/looseness changes based on how other people are playing/state of games. so a 2007 lag is probably a 2012 "nit in disguise"