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sauce123

Oct
06
2011
Occupy Wall Street?
Posted in Poker | View Comments (29)
 

Against my better judgement, I've started reading the newspaper again. On the one hand, it is sort of interesting to know what is happening in the world on a day to day basis, but on the other hand, what is happening in the world on a day to day basis tends to be depressing. I also tend to get totally enraged upon reading about current events when I see bad logic and poor arguments being paraded around as sound reasons for making important decisions. Here's one of them-

Recently, in New York City, a large group of mostly young people have started a protest called 'Occupy Wall Street' which has received a lot of coverage. In the photo I saw, people dressed up like zombies shove money in their orifices- which I take to mean they think that Wall Streeters are souless and only love money. Criticisms of the protest have focused on the fact that the protesters are not taking any cohesive strategy of civil disobedience, have not articulate any goals for policy change, and are just generally showing dissastisfaction with Wall Street but not presenting any constructive alternative. (It's totally possible I messed up some of this description, but this is the sense I get from the papers)

This protest exemplifies to me what I think is a popular and wrong position right now among (very loosely) average Americans. They seem to think a few things: 1) Wall Street was responsible for the Financial Crash, 2) Wall Street is bad and should be abolished/changed/heavily regulated/at least some smart person should figure out a way so that those moneygrubbing Wall Streeters cannot create another crisis, 3) Investing is good or at least permissable.

It's my contention that 1 is wrong, or at least simplistic enough that it lacks any real explanatory punch (although I could be wrong about this, I'm certainly not an expert), that 2 might be right or wrong and that 3 might be right or wrong. The key point here is that both 2 and 3 cannot both be true at once and therefore the intuitions/opinions of average enraged Americans involve contradiction.

To simplify matters, I'll take a simpler position which assumes 1 is true. P: Institutional investing should be abolished (Wall Street) and personal investing should be permissable. P isn't a reasonable position however, in that the vast majority of personal investing is mediated by institutions - eg pension funds, mutual funds etc. So then we have to say something like P*: The bad institutions should be regulated/made illegal. However, that doesn't quite work either. In the case of the crash of 2008, many, many "good" institutions bought credit default swaps and the like. They just happened to be horribly wrong about the value of said swaps, and ended up losing their shirts. That leaves then P**: a bad institution is one that is able to profit off of complex and volatile financial derivatives (and the like). And we should illegalize/regulate those! But P** is pretty clearly tantamount to saying that "If someone is smarter than me and beats me in a game of skill for money, I/we are justified in banning them from the playing field." To draw a common analogy, it's as if all the fish in the poker world woke up one morning and said: "Hey guys, poker is pretty friggin' complicated. These poker pros have access to forums and databases and tracking software and HUDS and quantitative software and devote tons of time to the game and are just generally smarter than us fish. That means we can't win! So we should ban pros from playing poker." There are two problems with this view or any view of this kind, 1) It's unjust and 2) It leads to a regress, as if the winners in a game are banned, then as winners are banned some set of losers will become winners who will in turn be the target of the same winner-banning policy and so on ...

However, I did draw the distinction at the top of the previous paragraph (that between solo and institutional investors) in order to show a possible non-contradictory way in which both 2 and 3 can be true. This is Q Institutional investing should be banned (or regulated) in all cases and non institutional investing (this can obviously be definied in various ways: eg exactly one person, set of persons < N, set of capital < N, etc) should remain legal/regulated as is. But I don't think Q is what most people are thinking of when they set out to Occupy Wall Street. I think they want their mutual funds/pension plans/various investments to deliver consistent and positive returns outperforming treasuries/interest rates and they also want it to be impossible for smart people to make a fortune in the markets. They can't fairly have both.

I'll trot out one more pretty speculative account of what might be the motivation for the inconsistent "common sense" view argued against above. It seems to me that people have a mistaken view of what investing is, and that this mistaken view leads to bad intuitions about policy. I think that when people hear "investing" they think of a practice which is guaranteed to have positive returns in the long run, subject to some short term fluctuations up and down. (a funny consequence of this view might be that people holding it have the intuition that shorting something is somehow morally reprehensible.) A possible reason they might think this is that over the past 60 years, which coincides with just about everyone currently investing's lifetimes, the American stock market has had extremely positive returns fairly consistently. However, there is absolutely no reason why this trend has to necessarily continue- past trends do not determine the future: this is the problem of induction. I think people think that Wall Street has somehow "rigged the game" and deprived their investments of the positive returns which are their just due. But an investment (in a stock, for example, not going to talk about derivatives) is just that, owning a very small part of a company. If the company does well, the investment likely produces positive returns, if the company does poorly (for whatever reason) the investment is likely to produce negative returns. Poker players know how to define that situation with a better term than "investment", we prefer to call it a bet.

Btw, this is all stream of consciousness, so not going to edit for content or grammar, there are likely to be errors. Let me know if you like this style of blog!

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10-06-2011
steel108 is offline steel108
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(1) is the truth. Wall Street was the catalyst for our country going to shit. I guess the White House bears a huge burden as well since they didn't care if investment banks weren't living up to their fiduciary duties. Very complicated topic tbh, but:

White House allows Wall Street to do whatever they want....

Wall Street is greedy and individuals makes a fortune in mortgages. When nobody would buy their mortgage backed securities, the banks were left with assets worth nothing.... BAM, they all fail (or should have failed). Very simplified version, but it's the heart of what happened. The system allowed for people get rich in the present, even if they knew it would bankrupt the house in the future.

Worst part of the debacle: investments banks were telling investors that these are amazing investments, grade A, blah, blah. After making the sale, they would buy credit default swaps to bet that the investment would fail. And this is all legal LOLOLOLOLOLOL
10-06-2011
OmgOverbetsss is offline OmgOverbetsss
Sauce, I've done a bit of research online about this group because a few of my friends are really into it. They're thinking about doing one in downtown STL in a few weeks and they want me to come with them. The thing that really bothers me is like you said they just do not have a definitive strategy or goal for what they are doing. They're basically standing around complaining about how bad wall street is. (Sort of like Woodstock or the hippies episode on south park)

Steel brings up some good points about why 1 is in fact true, or at least makes it highly likely that they had a big hand in it.

Also, I think your poker analogy is spot on. However, the issue that I have with translating that to the stock market is that in poker we make bets with our own money(obv there are staking deals going on in the poker world but they generally involve 2 or 3 people, not thousands). In the market, large firms dealing with pensions/mutual funds/etc are essentially making bets with thousands of other people's money(and for the most part, guaranteeing that there will be a positive ROI). Is it OK for a large firm to lead people to believe that they know and want what is best for the customers, when in reality, they're only concerned with their bottom line? Are we supposed to just say well the investor was dumb for not doing more research on the company, firm, or the investment and shouldn't have put all of their faith in what a firm tells them?(This brings up another point about the equal opportunity for information. In poker everyone has equal access to all available information. In the market, the average Joe investor rarely has equal access to the information that the top execs at Charles Schwab have. That is another big issue). I mean isn't the firm supposed to be the authority on the subject? Should it be OK for a firm to, in some cases, outright lie to the customer in order to raise their revenue?


Out of space. Awesome Post, keep them coming!
10-06-2011
grogheadflow is offline grogheadflow
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Quote:
That means we can't win! So we should ban pros from playing poker.
There was actually a poker site launched with this as it's main selling point. 'We only have games up to 25nl, so you won't face ANY pros'. lol. I forget it's name.

The whole hatred with Wall St/ 'the bankers' thing just has tons of holes in it of course. For one thing, if they did cause the crash, then they also sure as hell caused the preceding boom spanning 15 years.

After you boil down the derivatives, credit swaps, quantative easing, debt bubble, sub primes etc etc though, what you are essentially left with is people having too much 'stuff' before it was earned, and now there's not a lot of 'stuff' left.

Quote:
Let me know if you like this style of blog!
Ye !
10-06-2011
Hatya is offline Hatya
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I have been a home builder for the past 12 years.

The evil of the situation is much deeper rooted into the greed , and feeling of entitlement of almost every american person. You see many believe that wall street is to blame, because thats what the current american gov't spits out every time our current head dooshbag makes a speech.

But the bulk of the problem started when the Fed decided that every person in america should realize the dream of home ownership. Thus began the housing boom, where anyone with the ability to sign a contract was awarded a mortgage. And my industry could not build houses fast enough to supply the demand. I can tell you numerous stories of a young couple buying a $400k house from me, with less then %5 down, because they received a first mortgage and a equity line of credit from the banks to get them in the house. It was a joke really.

Its no surprise that the market crashed, and values fell to shit in most of america. Anyone paying attn should have seen this coming. TBH I was so dam busy building I never had time to pay attn, and who does when they are making buckets of money.

But now noone wants to accept blame, and it so easy to point the finger at wall street beause thats what our gov't does everyday. When in fact the gov't itself is the one that forced the banks into lowering credit standards allowing sub prime mortgages to flood the market.

Now I'm not saying wall street is above board and has no blame. I'm simply stating the fact that after the shit hits the fan everyone needs someone else to blame because no one is willing to accept the fact they bought something they could not afford, or that the signed a bad loan document because they where either to stupid or to lazy to read it.

And here we sit today, with our gov't pointing the finger at wall street. Its a crock of shit really.
10-06-2011
Hatya is offline Hatya
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I never knew reply's where limited to 2k words. I could have went on in much more detail.
10-06-2011
sauce123 is offline sauce123
Insightful comments! I probably won't respond to all of them because I don't pretend to be an expert on this subject and just cause it's my blog I don't feel the need to rebut/agree with every comment. Enjoying all of them though, keep em comin, I'll probably learn a few somethings...
10-06-2011
Drewgle is offline Drewgle
Updated 10-06-2011 at 06:33 PM by Drewgle
1 is untrue, for the most part (steel, I don't like your argument at all. If the White House [government] allows Wall Street to do whatever they want, then how can you blame them? That's like saying a dog is responsible for shitting in the neighbors yard when the owner didn't keep it on a leash. I know it's a shitty analogy, but you get the point). Did they play a huge role? Of course. Are they completely to blame? Absolutely not. I think these people should be protesting the government before Wall Street.

2 is somewhat true. We need to regulate the shit out of Wall Street. The only problem is the smartest people (i.e. the ones who are smart enough to regulate it) are never going to take some government position paying them 60k a year or whatever to do that work. They're going to go out and find the loopholes that these 60k a year guys leave and make a fortune exploiting those loopholes (sound like any game we play?)

3 is absolutely true. Without investments, our economy would never grow. Nothing would ever get done. Our world as a whole would become absolutely stagnant. Nobody would have any incentive to improve upon anything, except for the feeling of self worth (lol!).

I know this response is very opinionated and probably not very sensical but it's my thoughts nevertheless. I will never ever say that Wall Street has no blame, but to put it all on "them" is just irresponsible. As for the protesters, I don't know what they're complaining about. Anyone who lost money in the crisis (and I did) should have no right to complain. If you don't know what you're investing in, and it goes tits up, too F-ing bad. That's like sitting at a poker table not knowing that 3-pair means fuck-all.

Sorry for the angry rant, but this stuff really strikes a nerve...
10-06-2011
BobboFitos is offline BobboFitos
1 - It's not so simple to say "X was responsible for Y". In poker, or a specific hand, causality is much easier to understand. There is 1 cause and 1 effect. In life, X could be responsible for Y... Or it could have been Z, M, N, O, or even P! (Nah, it's never P) It's not really clear Wall Street was "the cause", however it certainly was a factor.

2 - Wall Street is not a person. It is neither good or bad. The idea behind Wall St. isn't just sound, it's positive and, inherently, "good". It's that the rules governing Wall St are fucked, which leads to some "bad" results. Who is to blame? The system (Government) or the people who exploit and contort the rules? I tend to think it's the former. If a system is in place to be exploited, it's equal opportunity for anyone who is able to exploit it. Good for them.

3 - Investing is a good thing, the problem is Wall St. isn't really about investing. At least, in the classical sense. ("Learn about industry, decide that's a positive idea and company, buy into said company") Speculating on price fluctuation, for example, is simply regulated gambling. I have no problem with that, obviously, but the problem I have is people don't call a spade a spade. It's "business". Yet blackjack is "gambling". Both involve calculated risk. Both involve a winner and a loser. etc etc.
10-06-2011
grogheadflow is offline grogheadflow
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@Hatya, totally agree the politicians did encourage this way of thinking, (although, ultimately the people decide what they want and get the politicians they deserve).

In fact here in the UK they are still in a tremendous muddle, in one speech flaming the banks for the reckless lending that got us into this mess, and then in the next threatening new laws to force them to lend to small businesses in order to 'help' the economy. You couldn't really make it up.

But the politicians are not stupid. As one European politician put it the other day 'we all know what we need to do to turn this around, we just don't know how to do it and still get elected'.
10-06-2011
Laser Show is offline Laser Show
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Part of the problem is that human capital and exchange of goods and services has taken a back seat to “finance,” which more and more boils down to making money out of thin air, with no value created. Value creation has been replaced by value transference, which is why ordinary people are getting poorer and have less job prospects, and a small pool of people are insanely rich.

Ask yourself if we’d be fine without Wall Street, and if not, why not? They've certainly convinced politicians and the media that we desperately need them, ergo, they get bailed out for massive mistakes and it's business as usual all over again. Socialism for them, rugged capitalism for the rest of us as they say.

Everyone has different reasons for participating or relating to the "Occupation." The primary stated goal is to separate money from political outcomes. If the movement can create a positive outcome on just that it will be a success. However, it's likely to be marginalized by people attaching themselves to it who know they "want" something but don't know what it is. The media will certainly be happy if they can wrap up a tidy narrative for the whole thing but so far that's been tough to do.

The anger towards "Wall Street" isn't going anywhere soon. Many of our economic problems CAN be traced to the Wall Street "casino" and the refusal of the Wall Street bankers to accept their losses, and the government propping them up by transferring these massive losses to taxpayers - at a time when they're hurting. There's also something severely un-democratic about this transference as it was clearly AGAINST public opinion, but we were assured it was being done to save us and the economy. It's collusion pure and simple.

In 1946, financial institutions accounted for <1% of all U.S. debt. Today, they're responsible for nearly 33%, 3x more than the ~11% owed by the federal government. Just don't expect anyone to be accountable for this.
10-06-2011
MC TRON is offline MC TRON
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WOWZA! Nothing interesting insightful to add, but just thought I'd give another "keep this blogs coming" message.
NIce one.
10-06-2011
momcinto is offline momcinto
Large groups of extremely ignorant people like this make me think riots like those in Greece are possible in the United States. When I hear people blaming speculators, short sellers, George Soros, hedge funds, etc, it reminds me of fish who blame dealers and RNGs. Its nonsensical Blaming banks isn't the right answer either. If the free market would have been allowed to work with a balance of fear and greed instead of removing the fear part of the system, 2008 and most major asset bubbles won't happen. People need to blame themselves for not having a better understanding of economics. High unemployment now is caused by excesses of a credit bubble that caused misallocation of capital and investment. If people were educated in economics, the decisions like letting companies fail, letting markets determine interest rates, who gets loans, and insurance costs wouldn't be so politically difficult.
10-07-2011
Probability is offline Probability
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10-07-2011
preflopjitters is offline preflopjitters
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^^Damn that is brilliant.
10-07-2011
Hatya is offline Hatya
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@Probabilty

I thought the guy in the interview was going somewhere until the end where he stated that the Solindra Problem was nonsense. Granted in the big picture $535,000,000 is a small amount of money in relation to our debt problems.

But what he and most fail to understand, and we as poker players do understand, is a leak is a leak. The size of the leak will compound itself over time. If noone is taking a $535m mistake seriously then how many $25M - $50M leaks are there creating our $14 Trillion dollar debt.
10-07-2011
Hatya is offline Hatya
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This guy outs it into laymen's terms.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-mAUQYn6DjM
10-07-2011
steel108 is offline steel108
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This is a very interesting and complicated subject matter. Post black friday, I was pretty bored and really put time into analyzing it; it replaced poker for a long time. I also devoted a ton of time into our national debt (the US is in VERY big trouble). The meltdown occured during the final semester of my MBA program and tbh I never thought it was a big deal; I was sheltered from it because of online poker (easy money). This was my motivation for putting an insane amount of time into it.

FWIW, I think things are going to get worse. Obama preached change throughout the election and his goal was to reform Wall Street. Nothing has changed.... Geithner is still running the Treasury and all the ex-CEO of investment banks are still his top advisors; the status quo has been maintained. These investment banks are gaining more autonomy and influence; unless the people working for the i-banks have experienced a paradigm shift with respects to greed, nothing has changed
10-07-2011
sauce123 is offline sauce123
Update: while I was drinking coffee outside of my class today a kid approached me and gave me a flyer advertising 'Occupy Toronto' which is supposed to occur from around the end of Oct until Dec 31st.
10-07-2011
jupiter is offline jupiter
Just going to drop off a book recommendation about the financial crash: The Big Short by Michael Lewis.

I also recommend Liar's Poker by the same author as well. Very quick and interesting reads.
10-07-2011
CDoubleU is offline CDoubleU
10-07-2011
shootaa is offline shootaa
"We all know what we need to do to turn this around, we just don't know how to do it and still get elected"

This is probably one of the best quotations of all time. It's so tough to please the bottom 99.7%, the people who will make a poster and dress up like a zombie before they have a clue what they're "protesting" while also getting work done.

This event seems like some social phenomena more than anything helpful to a governing body or any body of people. I'm not entirely convinced logic ever comes into the picture; although, laughing at donks every once in a while can be a fun way for an unemployed logician of sorts to pass the time.
10-10-2011
grabthegat is offline grabthegat
Ron Paul 2012
10-15-2011
TwoSHAE is offline TwoSHAE
Could write a lot about this but...

Thoughts on style: Great (as always with your blogs)

Thoughts on content: Haven't read all comments but seconding (1) being true. Undeniably so. Also +1 on Liar's Poker being a great book about the history of Salomon and Wall St in general. The Quants is also a very good read directly related to the causes of the financial crisis.

@Steel


Worst part of the debacle: investments banks were telling investors that these are amazing investments, grade A, blah, blah. After making the sale, they would buy credit default swaps to bet that the investment would fail. And this is all legal LOLOLOLOLOLOL

This is a bit off. If you've dedicated a lot of time learning about finance then I'm sure you've seen the term "Goldman probe" in the news/WSJ lately. The allegations are: Goldman securitized bad assets because they knew they could sell them, and additionally made a market that allowed them to bet against them, knowing they would fail (CDS's and the like), and used this to make a lot of money. That is most certainly NOT legal, and that's why it's being investigated.

@Laser


Part of the problem is that human capital and exchange of goods and services has taken a back seat to “finance,” which more and more boils down to making money out of thin air, with no value created. Value creation has been replaced by value transference, which is why ordinary people are getting poorer and have less job prospects, and a small pool of people are insanely rich.

Social Darwinism at its best... "adapt or die," as Nick Rivers put it
10-15-2011
TwoSHAE is offline TwoSHAE
Also no one has mentioned moral hazard which deep down was the cause. I think people who think Wall St should be heavily regulated and whatnot should be happy about the new Volcker Rule prohibiting banks from propriety trading (in many instances) and the elimination of TBTF.

But fuck all that, Wall St makes markets which allow brilliant people to make scrilla. I don't see what's wrong with programming trading software that can scoop up mispriced equities .0008 seconds after an earnings report is released or something. Everyone who bitches about not getting his/her return is a fish, because the info IS out there. Everyone knows trading has become largely quantitative and done by computers, so those who try it without advanced software HUD-less fish that are doomed to fail.

Oh and before anyone says it, yes I am biased as ibanking is my current career path
10-23-2011
roundcube is online now roundcube
I feel people are pissed since the society in less equal than it used to be. The rich 1% have gained more than the middle class over the last couple of decades with CEO wages going through the roof etc and now we have an economic slump which really highlights this issue.
10-25-2011
stinger88 is offline stinger88
Government policy was the principal cause of the financial crisis; Wall Street by extension played a role but only because the system incentivised TBTF banks to take on large amounts of risk knowing that bailouts were likely should the risks backfire (moral hazard). The seeds for the crisis were planted by the government's desire to spread home ownership to far greater levels than a free market would dictate as well as the Fed's easy money policy that has artificially inflated asset prices for years while creating inflation, which effectively acts as a transfer of wealth from the lower and middle class to the wealthy since poorer people spend a larger % of their incomes and get hit disproportionately hard by price increases. The Volcker Rule is a big step in the right direction but the moral hazard that TBTF brings needs to end and the government needs to stop trying to get every American to own a home by trotting out Fannie/Freddie 30 year fixed mortgages that offer artificially low rates due to govt backing and distort the equilibrium of the housing market, amounting to a huge subsidy by a government that sure as hell can't afford it with all the debt they've racked up. The govt has backed itself into a corner where they almost have to print more money (via the Fed) to finance debts but will just mess up the economy even more and create future bubbles/crises by doing so.
10-25-2011
stinger88 is offline stinger88
Love the blog format btw Ben, inspires me to want to blog more. Would love to see more of similar style
10-25-2011
grizy123 is offline grizy123
Stinger covered a lot of the good points.

Just want to make one thing abundantly clear: it's the public and politicians that demanded cheap financing and easy ownership. They are just refusing to live with the consequences.
10-25-2011
grizy123 is offline grizy123
Wall Street is not without fault. The rating agencies and AIG were incompetent (this is structurally related, smartest guys out of business schools don't go to rating agencies and AIG). AIG in particular was so negligent in hedging their own risks, their actions were essentially criminal.
 
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