400nl aejones says shove over cbets, but he checks

[Chaser8]

In one of aejone's memoir chapters, he said that a good way to counter people who 3bet you light from the blinds when you have AQ is to call and shove all flops over their cbets. His reasoning is that AK + air won't be able to call your shove with just A high. Even if you're called with JJ, you still have 6 clean outs. However, this situation came up,

I isoraise 2 limpers with AQ otb to $24, bb 3bets me to $74

He's been 3betting me ftbs a few times too many in the last couple of orbits. This is also an isoraise. I've also been folding to his 3bets. I'm convinced that he's 3betting me light here. Sometimes, I'd 4bet/call but I don't think his range is super light that he'd be sticking it with hands that I dominate. So, I elect to call and shove all flops over his cbet.

flop comes 887. Imo this is a good board to shove over his cbet because he probably sees it as dry, therefore a good board to fire on. However, much to my great chagrin, he CHECKS. I wasn't prepared for this and I still don't know what it means.

Should I bet/fold, or check and shove over a turn bet?

[BobboFitos]

check behind

[Chaser8]

Okay cool. So we are holding AQ

Now, if we check back flop and he BETS 2/3 pot on the turn, what's your action if the turn card is:

9
making the board 8879

and what's your action if turn card is:

2

making the board 8872

[SEABEAST]

i think you should shove pre, because the threebet amount is much higher than usual because of the limper situation

if you think his range is wide, just shove pre - 20% of your stack in this spot is a lot different to the usual 12% or so of your stack that a standard threebet makes up.

as played, it's not often i disagree with rob, but - i think you should fire half pot on the flop, he is usually checking to give up vs your perceived TT or whatever imo (especially at this level, people go for checkraises here very rarely i find at 2/4)

[BobboFitos]

really jay? i suppose you're right but when i see pfrr check, it's typically to call, and if they're going to fold on the flop, they'll still fold on the turn, so checking behind on the flop will enable me to see which of the two actions they were going to do vs a bet

[Chaser8]

Originally Posted by SEABEAST

i think you should shove pre, because the threebet amount is much higher than usual because of the limper situation

if you think his range is wide, just shove pre - 20% of your stack in this spot is a lot different to the usual 12% or so of your stack that a standard threebet makes up.

I thought about shoving. But if we shove, don't we turn our hand into a bluff? When our shove gets called, we'll be flipping at best, don't you guys think?

[BobboFitos]

You never expect them to fold better but shove can still be correct. It's a weird idea to wrap one's head around, but even if they truly "never fold better" (and they may actually 3bet/fold small pairs or whatever) a shove w/ say AQ (but not K7, where it's "more" of a bluff) could be correct

[Chaser8]

Originally Posted by BobboFitos

You never expect them to fold better but shove can still be correct. It's a weird idea to wrap one's head around, but even if they truly "never fold better" (and they may actually 3bet/fold small pairs or whatever) a shove w/ say AQ (but not K7, where it's "more" of a bluff) could be correct

wtf that's definitely a tough one to swallow.

Generally speaking, then, in what situations would you want to _call_ a 3bet with the intention of raising their cbet on the flop? We can't always fold or 4bet against 3bets, can we?

[Isura]

Originally Posted by Chaser8

wtf that's definitely a tough one to swallow.

Generally speaking, then, in what situations would you want to _call_ a 3bet with the intention of raising their cbet on the flop? We can't always fold or 4bet against 3bets, can we?

The equity when called is better with AQ. Also fold equity is the main variable.

[BobboFitos]

Originally Posted by Chaser8

wtf that's definitely a tough one to swallow.

Generally speaking, then, in what situations would you want to _call_ a 3bet with the intention of raising their cbet on the flop? We can't always fold or 4bet against 3bets, can we?

You could but it's not optimal. Some people DO do this.