Re: 25nl:qq
[quote=Probability;85201]Hey Pat,
Maybe this is a c/f instead of a b/f but it's never a c/c because...
His calling range is going to be wider than his value betting range. This is because our line turns part of his rnge into bluff catchers. Hands too weak to bet for value but strong enough to call on the chance we can be bluffing.
Examples of hands for this? AQ,QJ... AJ and AT he should have been betting turn for protection/value, same with TT or JJ.
I dolike the flop c bet cause we have outs and we fold out a ton of hands that might stab and take the pot if we check, 87s 22-88 ans shit like that.
so what would a flop c/c achieve here? It keeps all these hands in, and gives us relative position on most turns, as i think he's often second barrelling. on the other hand, on straight or flush making turn, we might have to c/f. Could we c/c flop and lead turn? this would get an extra bet from all the PPs under 88, and give them very little chance of drawing out on the turn.... only the chance of hitting a good bluffing card.
His other range is actual strong hands, are either not far behind, like pair+draw hands, or hands that are already ahead, JJ, TT. Or hands that think they're ahead, like 2pairs. I think his range is weighted towards these as opposed to PPs, so i'm usually gonna be playing against these. Is it best to cbet against taht range? Or c/c? the problem with cbetting is that he may raise us, and we'd have to fold... or he may call us down for value, letting us take the lead if he knows he's ahead... Although the range of hands we're already losing to is quite small, so i think i like a cbet here for value against the draws.
You might be asking yourself "Don't we give him an op to bluff if we c/c making that line ok?" The answer to this is "no" because he can never get to the river with air the way the board ran out. So he can never bluff the river. If spades missed there would be more of a case for a c/c.
are we talking about c/c on the flop still? we can't tell what the next 2cardds are going to bring, so that's not much of a useful angle to look at it from... We could c/c the flop allowing him to bluff, but as mentioned above, I think his range is weighted towards pair + draw hands, cos of the action pre, and the amount of combinations of these, so I like trying to get value from these.
Most of the time you c/c the river is when draws miss and you want poeple to bluff you. There are a lot of other situations too but this keyboard is sticky so we can talk about it later.
yeah, but most draws got there on this river, so this is hardly ideal...
As far as a hand that we are ahead of on this flop that calls a 3 bet preflop... this guy is not you and has different ranges. When I sweat you we always see retards in 3 bet pots with all sorts of stuff youwould not play. So I would ave to disagree that his range is so tight that there is NO hand we are ahead of.
villain is unknown, so could be calling pre with just about anything... I've put him on ranges above assuming he's somewaht sensible. I agree though that we could definetly be ahead of alot of hands that he calls a 3bet with.
Looking at the hand more I think the river is a clear c/c. He checks back all pair+ str8 draws and all fush draws on the turn. If he somehow pure floated us on this flop (seems unlikely) he would bet the turn with his bluffs most of the time. Those two things make his river betting rnage way to strong for us to bet into. He is also not betting worse ahnds for value making it an easy fold once we check.
i like this paragraph... i think you mean river is a clear c/f though.[/QUOTE]
For anyone that might try to read what i just wrote- it's probably nonsensical, as i'm just collecting random thoughts taht are floating around my head- will try and make it tidier tomorrow.
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