Evolution of the Game

[Xeta23]

Hey guys

Every time I read a post from like '07 or '08 about how easier the games used to be and how everybody's getting better and more aggresive (with the help of forums, books, coaching sites etc.), I kinda wonder how the game will be in like 4-5 years. (Will it be unbeatable or whatever, will it stay pretty much the same etc.) I'm sure most of you do too. So what are your thoughts on that?

Also, those who have been playing for a long time and who have watched how the game evolved to this point, could you like compare the level of difficulty of a particular stake at 2007/2008 to the same stake in today's game?

[steel108]

It's impossible to really make a comparison. At limits like 200NL 6 max and lower, the amount of fish playing is the same (there might be more tbh). The difference is that the regs are better and more aggressive. Nobody 3Bet in 2006 or snap got it all in with AK. But to balance that, all the regs were more passive. Today, all the regs are more aggressive. It cancels each other out and we are just left with more variance.

At 400NL up to 2000NL, the games are drastically different. Back on Party in 06, the 2000NL games are basically exactly the same as 200NL games today. A HUGE number of fish playing (comparable to 200NL today) and a ton of aggression. I think the skill of most regs are equal to 200NL regs today. They were 3betting light, triple barreling, etc before that became the standard. Today, when you look at 1000NL and 2000NL, the fish is the 400NL reg taking a shot. I don't know how these guys play in these games. However, it's all relative.

[robbyd86]

I think it will always be beatable cause you're always playing against other ppl and other ppl will always make mistakes. Goal is to make as few mistakes as possible. There's always going to be adjustments to be made.

Also, poker boom may be leveling out in U.S, but it's starting to hit parts of Europe (places it wasn't already), Russia, and there's plenty of other countries who can get into poker, and keep the fish pouring in.

[Xeta23]

Yeah of course there will always be fish or unimaginative regulars or whatever; what I'm really trying to figure out though, is, will the game ever be completely "solved" so that the best players can't really improve any more and the highest stakes games are like neutral EV for every player at the table (assuming everybody's like uber solid psychologically and nobody makes any fundamental mistakes)? Or will there always be a theoretically superior strategy?

[robbyd86]

It just won't happen, cause for every strategy there is a counter strategy, and a counter strategy for that, and that, and that. Just so many ways to play (although only a few optimal i suppose), and so many levels to go to I just don't think it will ever be unbeatable.

[Maximus13]

The game is solved, just ask ashman.

Being one level ahead of your opponent, is just what it takes to beat an opponent. Thats just a basic principle of the game imo. One of those things that is easier said then done.

[RikaKazak]

I think if sites combat ss'ers and bots...the game will still be "around" in 5 years. The only "death" of NLHE I can see is if sites like stars just let ss'ing go wild. After all, how fun is it to play 9 handed when 7 are short stacked and there's only 1 fish...not very fun imo.

But...just like how limit hold'em died...and SNGs are semi dying...I think the future will be PLO and we'll just transition to that.

[JamesMa]

the game will continue to get harder and harder I think. Those at the top will start dropping limits so they can continue to crush or just so they will be able to still win. I already see players who used to play 10/20nl regularly playing 3/6nl a lot now. This will cause a chain reaction to ripple through the limits as regs will continue to drop from 3/6nl to lower limits and so forth.

I think for most players, their "salary" from poker every year will decrease after the next 4 or 5 years. Kind of the reverse of a regular job's salary. So like right now in the next x amount of years we're earning maximum wage and then it should start to dip off.

[steel108]

Something everyone should do if they are interested in this (you need a CardRunners subcription). Just start looking at their first video and slowly progress to more current videos. WOW is all I can say; I have been doing this for 2 hours and the games were truly amazing.

[RikaKazak]

One thing I think most people miss is that "of course the games are getting harder." Human beings get better at all things.. We're getting faster, stronger, smarter etc. In all sports the games are getting harder. Look at snowboarding for those that watched the olympics. 4 years ago the "big move" that shaun white did and ZOMG awesome and he won gold....everyone can do that move now. This olympic games he brought out a new move that no one can do...and in 4 years he'll probably need an even NEWER/harder move.

So...if you go into it with the attitude "I've gotta study poker cause everyone studying/improving" I think you can have a long poker career.