Balancing - Protecting Floats

[PBJaxx]

I am curious about opinions on a few things here. Hopefully there will be some good feedback.

I am finding myself more and more concerned with expanding my range within relatively common situations. The difficult part of remaining deceptive and expanding one's range is doing so without deviating from a more "optimal" line too often. I personally fear that I am often too FPSy. In order to focus discussion, I will use a simple example hand.

5/10NL (6max)
Eff Stacks $1k
SB is a 24/19 regular who views hero as 25/20 active regular

Folds to hero on button who opens to $35 with TT
SB 3-bets to $115
Hero calls

Flop ($240): Q2Q
SB bets $155, hero calls

Turn ($550): Q2Q4
SB checks, Hero...

First of all, checking the turn is my preferred play. Obviously, this is pretty close to a WA/WB situation. Most of the time when we are ahead, villain has 6 outs at most. Also, I don't really think bet/folding is a good option with the stack sizes. If we bet, it will be with the intention of calling a shove. I think this is all standard stuff, although I would certainly listen to other opinons.

The real question I have is, how often do we need to bet here to "protect" our floats? As a loose-aggressive post-flop player, I can float in these spots relatively often (especially when deeper). When I check behind this turn, I think my range can be pretty easily identified as ~77-JJ, with the occasional queen or AA. When I bet, my range becomes any bair float, any queen, 22, 44, 55-JJ, AA-KK. Also, if I never bet with marginal pocket pair-type hands here, my floats become very polarized as well, and any observant opponent should know that.

I know that it is very difficult to quantify these situations, but I would really like to hear opinions. It is possible that I will just get "wow you are overthinking this you FPSy moron." If that is the concensus, then at least I have something more to think about

[grunch]

Depends on flow, LDO.

Just kidding. Actually I think this is a really interesting post. This is the kind of thing I've only really ever thought about in the heat of battle, it's never been something that I've sat back & thought about away from the game, like 3betting light etc. I've never seen a post about this here or on 2p2, so I feel like this is kind of the poker equivalent of basic research. Being a physics guy, I love basic research.

I do make these bets to protect my floats as you say. They are always spur of the moment. I guess by that I mean I'm doing it in order to either exploit some recent turn of events (like if my opponent just lost a big pot and I think he's licking his wounds) or to enforce an image I'm trying to project. I guess just for the sake of stating the obvious, I'm looking for Fold Equity and I don't expect this bet to be very +EV in a vacuum (in not -EV).

One thing I have noticed about almost all players (myself included, for shame) is that no matter how good they are and how well they think about the game, you can always find a spot where they will revert to 1st-level thinking. That is, thinking about just the absolute value of their hand. For some people that's every hand , but for others you have to put them in the right situation. Good hand readers will see your move for what it is -- a stab at the pot. But only if they are hand reading well at the moment. I think that in the case of most good TAGs/sLAGs, when they are out of position on a late street and find themselves in a bloated pot with a marginal hand, they kind of run home to momma and revert to 1st level play. So in this particular hand I think you have a lot of FE. Plus as you hint at, if the hand does manage to show down and he sees that you're willing to not pot-control at times with your middling hands, he's going to try to react to that. Maybe he will react in a way that you can exploit it, maybe he will start becoming more weak-tight OOP in this spot and make your floats even more effective.

Ok enough random ramblings for now, lets see what others have to say.

[PBJaxx]

Thank you for the comments, Grunch. I do think the main benefit of betting in these spots is to expand your range. As you mentioned, it can force people to play straight-forward against you. Very good thoughts overall.

I expect that most poeple will want to say "depends on flow, image, etc." I completlely understand that. TBH, I often dont post in these types of threads because this stuff is very hard to discuss/plan for away from the table. I am trying to get better about that...hence this post. Thank you for any feedback anyone gives.

[crunchi]

If you think your turn check behind range is transparently JJ-77 why cant you check behind air on the turn as well, with the intention of betting the river?

[MYNAMEIZGREG]

Originally Posted by crunchi

If you think your turn check behind range is transparently JJ-77 why cant you check behind air on the turn as well, with the intention of betting the river?

Like I said in my HU video vs Craig, something that I certainly do semi-often vs thinking players is check back the turn with floats, and then make it look like I'm going for thin value on the river.

Once your opponent sees you doing this, you can start actually betting the turn with your floats (and, perhaps maybe trips). Of course, still check behind sometimes.

Another alternative is to raise/call the flop. If you show down TT in that type of a spot, it will become impossible for your opponent to play really well against your flop raises in spots like this in the future.

[PBJaxx]

Originally Posted by MYNAMEIZGREG

Like I said in my HU video vs Craig, something that I certainly do semi-often vs thinking players is check back the turn with floats, and then make it look like I'm going for thin value on the river.

Definitely an outstanding point and something that I occasionally do. Unfortunately, I don't think I do this often enough in 3bet pots with 100ish bbs (still shouldn't be very often, LDO).

Once your opponent sees you doing this, you can start actually betting the turn with your floats (and, perhaps maybe trips).

I really don't see how rep'ing a thin riv value bet with a float allows you to bet the turn with your floats. It doesn't change that much. While it is a good line, it only widens your range for river bets and turn checks. It does not change that much when you bet the turn. Your range is still primarily floats and big hands. Of course, now a small percentage of your bluffs check behind the turn, but you still have a similar turn betting range.

Another alternative is to raise/call the flop. If you show down TT in that type of a spot, it will become impossible for your opponent to play really well against your flop raises in spots like this in the future.

This is very good stuff, and I am going to think more about adding that to my game. Doing this with 88-TT could really make it difficult for villains to play 3bet pots OOP vs me. Thank you for the input.

[PBJaxx]

Originally Posted by crunchi

If you think your turn check behind range is transparently JJ-77 why cant you check behind air on the turn as well, with the intention of betting the river?

Good point, but see my post above. While this adds slightly to my turn check range, it really doesnt change my turn betting range. To make this apply properly, I pretty much cant bet the turn here with most holdings.

I would listen to an argument to polarize my turn betting range, and widen my river betting range and "call it good" from there. Only a few posts, but very good discussion thus far, ty.

[nubbbby]

im anxious to see more replies to this. I feel this is one of my biggest struggles. I often get lost and frustrated because it seems as soon as I stab at it whether its air or 88 I'm getting check/shoved and I'm just stuck. Hopefully more content can be added to this.

[crunchi]

So i guess betting the turn with TT is kind of a range merge because villain will only expect you to bet monsters or air, right?

How often do we need to do this to remain 'unreadable' 10%, 20%, 30%...

[Isura]

PBJ,
One point you didn't mention is the villain's tendencies. If his range for 3-betting PF and betting that type of flop doesn't include many pairs lower than TT, then a turn bet with this hand is for protection against random 3-6 outers (and with the benefit of protecting your floats in case the hand goes to showdown). So in this case there is less pure value in betting out, and on this dry board texture you aren't getting c/r by a combo draw type hand too often. Point is that you have less incentive to bet here from an immediate EV standpoint (although it still may be the most +EV play in the short term), so checking and giving up a bit of EV can be okay. Obviously if the guy is likely to call you down with worse in this spot, then you give up too much immediate EV to make checking worthwhile.

Another consideration is that checking a strong hand in this spot protects you on the river in future hands. You'd prefer not to face a gross river bet when you take the same line (call/check) with 55 or AK.