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Old 06-24-2008, 11:16 AM
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Default Having A Positive Win W/O Showdown?

I have noticed that although I am a steady winning player at 200NL, that my win w/o showdown graph slowly decreases over time.

I was talking to a friend about this, who is also a solid player at these kind of levels. Furthermore, when I was looking through the blog of one of the guys who brag posted about running ~15ptBB/100 at 200NL for a decent sample, I noticed they have a very big +ve win w/o showdown.

Now a) do you think it is a leak in your game not to be at least neutral ev,
and if so
b) what causes this and what sort of things should I be looking at in order to combat it.
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Old 06-24-2008, 01:11 PM
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Win W/O Showdown is soo ****ing hard for me too!! i think at the moment i'm calling tooo many flop that i cant go on with another bet... however seems like for what i've seen in the forums etc... winning W/O Showdown isn't so easy.. you have to learn a lot of things, and read hands very well.. I like to think that where i play at 50nl player are too bad for allow me to winning without show... but probably this is only one excuse!!! but u know, i've seen in some higher stakes videos people can fold with 300$ in front and a pot of 1400 if they figure out that are beaten.. at 50nl that simply don't happen.
I don't know if this is neccessarly a leak
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Old 06-25-2008, 09:27 AM
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If you play heads up you should strive to have positive Ww/oSD; but 3-handed (or more) its perfectly normal to have negative values for Ww/oSD (if everybody plays "perfectly" everybody is going to have positive WwSD and negative Ww/oSD with sum zero, neglecting rake).
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Old 06-25-2008, 10:21 AM
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Benve79 this isn't what I am read elsewhere since originally posting. It is exactly the point that nobody plays perfectly, and the best 6-max players seem to manage to be at least break even with won w/o showdown (above micro-limits).

Last edited by oracle3001 : 06-25-2008 at 10:27 AM.
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Old 06-25-2008, 03:12 PM
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hmmm... read the thread that is currently below this one... I linked in case it moves

http://www.leggopoker.com/forums/pok...tyle-1368.html
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Old 06-25-2008, 03:40 PM
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A while ago i made a post in my blog after buying PT3 here. I noticed the exact same thing as you and i gave it more weight than standard pokerEV stuff because its simply divided into two sides that cannot be wrong; non showdown and showdown winnings.

Immediately i tried to adjust and figure out what this could be. After a while i couldn't figure it out so i made another post on leggo here. Also cross posted on liquidpoker here. Still, not too much info was gained from this.

A little info about my game: I've been playing for several years although I started off very very badly and about a year and a half professionally. I play like 20/18/4.5 or something while 10-12 tabling and generally log 75k hands a month doing so (this month, even more). When i 4-6 table i play a lot looser naturally (like 30/25/5 to about 28/25/4.5) because i pick up on a lot more situations i can take advantage of and just generally think more in depth about whats going on. I very very rarely tilt. While 4 tabling, i've got an extremely positive non showdown stat.

After having noticed this and keeping in mind my tendency towards a much looser style playing less tables i came to the conclusion that the key was that the games i was playing werent suited for 12 tabling anymore and i'd have to rebalance the number of tables. Either that or my focus/intensity had decreased thus resulting in giving up in more marginal sitatuations due to lack of thinking time.. whatever.

At first i thought its not a totally fair to compare these two styles but it actually is. Its fair because playing looser is my natural style and what i'm comfortable doing it seems 4-6 tabling and while 12 tabling i dont feel i play much different but what i do notice is i'm folding in spots where i dont have enough time to think about them. This can be because either im not opening preflop or accidentally folding preflop due to autopilot or because im not making the correct decisions postflop due to multitabling etc.

I think after some more adjustments i've managed to at least plug the major leaks for my 12 tabling game which was largely to do with aggression. At my stakes atm (100nl and some 200nl) even if you don't quite connect the two dots in the moment you're playing a hand generally the aggressive route is the best of all. This means, enter the hands you play with a plan and play them aggressively. If you plan to float, float very often. If you plan to call and bluffraise lots of flops, bluff raise very often. Just keep in mind if you're calling to do an action that you actually follow through with your plan otherwise its probably break even or possibly even losing and you just sit there feeling like a passive mother****er.

One thing that was a specific leak in my case was three barreling too little. Generally i overestimated my showdown value in most situations and didn't keep firing even although i know most of the time my opponent has a slightly weaker hand and probably cant call my 3 barrels profitably.

Just gotta find a balance, maybe 8-9 tabling max is most appropriate in my situation but maybe you can only play 2-3 tables and theres nothing wrong with that.

Cheers,

David.

Last edited by ggplz : 06-25-2008 at 03:48 PM.
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Old 06-26-2008, 02:19 PM
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Great post ggplz. I have been having similar problems and that has inspired me too work on winning more non-SD $$$. I have run at 9ptbb/100 over 20k+ hands at 50nl and my Non-SD winnings goes staight down. I honestly think that the reason this happens for me is because I table select really strongly, which leads me to be playing against 50+/35+ spewtards a lot, where I try to play more showdown poker vs them.
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Old 06-27-2008, 09:17 PM
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I still think its normal to be losing w/oSD 3-or-more handed, even more so if you are mainly exploiting loose-passive players.

In my case practically all of the loss w/oSD is coming from folding the blinds preflop. You could try to filter the hands with VP$IP, if you are still significantly losing w/oSD then it might be a leak.
Another way would be to filter hands not on the blinds, from there you should not be losing w/oSD.

A related stat is W$WSF, this might be too low if you're playing weak-tight, especially from the blinds.
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Old 07-14-2008, 09:04 AM
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Game select well, ruthlessly attack blinds and weak players while figuring out how not to lose the farm to people who won't give you loose action.
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Old 07-14-2008, 02:25 PM
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bluff in better spots and vbet thinner on every street
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