Theory: 4 Bet Sizing

[BobboFitos]

Originally Posted by PerDoom

Depends on player. 4bet small against people that 3bet a lot but don't have the cajones to bluff and shove against people that are nuts but not insane enough to call a shove.

Also lol at not 4bet bluffing with 100bb stacks

NL400, person A raises to 14, person B makes it 52. You make it 140, they shove. You need ~32% equity to call an all in if they shove. Unless villain is only shoving the tightest of ranges, most of what you initially raised first in - we're not opening ATC - is priced in.

[aejones]

i 3-bet small a LOT. i can't really do over huge 3-bets (i consider 14 to 52 a large ish 3-bet- another reason i open to 3x). in that case, i'll call a lot and go all in a lot on a lot of flops. if i open to 12 an dhe goes to 40 or 44, i will make it 105 or 110 and fold to a shove.

at 5-10, it goes 30, 110, 280 or 30 100 275 where i've got room to manuever very often. sometimesm i'm small four betting to induce a shove (frequently, iobviously) but i def 4-bet small bc of the frequency of people three betting and the lack of them five bet shoving with air.

[PerDoom]

Originally Posted by BobboFitos

NL400, person A raises to 14, person B makes it 52. You make it 140, they shove. You need ~32% equity to call an all in if they shove. Unless villain is only shoving the tightest of ranges, most of what you initially raised first in - we're not opening ATC - is priced in.

I wouldn't make it 140. I'd make it 115 against most people that I said earlier.

[Speedlimits]

Originally Posted by PerDoom

Depends on player. 4bet small against people that 3bet a lot but don't have the cajones to bluff and shove against people that are nuts but not insane enough to call a shove.

Also lol at not 4bet bluffing with 100bb stacks

4bet bluffing with 100BB stacks is really awkward.

The whole effectiveness of 3betting is precisely because of the 100BB stack.

Villain raises to 3.5BB, we raise to 12BB. We are risking 12BB to effectively threaten villains 100BB stack. The power of making our opponent define his hand and pressure him into a marginal situation is why it is so EV+ to 3bet. Conversely, this same reason is exactly why it is horrible to 4bet bluff with 100BB stacks.

[PerDoom]

Originally Posted by Speedlimits

4bet bluffing with 100BB stacks is really awkward.

The whole effectiveness of 3betting is precisely because of the 100BB stack.

Villain raises to 3.5BB, we raise to 12BB. We are risking 12BB to effectively threaten villains 100BB stack. The power of making our opponent define his hand and pressure him into a marginal situation is why it is so EV+ to 3bet. Conversely, this same reason is exactly why it is horrible to 4bet bluff with 100BB stacks.

That made no sense. If it is +ev to 3bet a wide range, why wouldn't it be +EV to 4bet bluff? If villain 3bets to 12bb, and we 4bet to 27bb, why is that awkward and aren't we threatening his 100bb stack then? Only has to work 50% of the time alone without putting in more money or adding some EV to when we get called and suckout or are able to bluff some scary flop or for future EV when you actually up a hand. Mostly just sounds to me like you like using fancy terms without knowing what they mean.

Do you ever 4bet? If so, it is a massive mistake if you don't 4bet bluff. Have to compensate for your range being so disproportionate towards value. I mean, you could never 4bet for this strategy to work, but it will create some extra difficult situations postflop a lot. Trust me, I tried it out, and it was pretty hard and puts in way more variance postflop since you have to shove like any draw so often with 100bbs.

I guess you can get away with this no 4bet bluff strategy until you hit 5/10 or so where regs will just eat you alive.

[Speedlimits]

Originally Posted by PerDoom

That made no sense. If it is +ev to 3bet a wide range, why wouldn't it be +EV to 4bet bluff? If villain 3bets to 12bb, and we 4bet to 27bb, why is that awkward and aren't we threatening his 100bb stack then? Only has to work 50% of the time alone without putting in more money or adding some EV to when we get called and suckout or are able to bluff some scary flop or for future EV when you actually up a hand. Mostly just sounds to me like you like using fancy terms without knowing what they mean.

Do you ever 4bet? If so, it is a massive mistake if you don't 4bet bluff. Have to compensate for your range being so disproportionate towards value. I mean, you could never 4bet for this strategy to work, but it will create some extra difficult situations postflop a lot. Trust me, I tried it out, and it was pretty hard and puts in way more variance postflop since you have to shove like any draw so often with 100bbs.

I guess you can get away with this no 4bet bluff strategy until you hit 5/10 or so where regs will just eat you alive.

um lol. bobbo already went over this. It's because we are getting priced in to call a shove. Sure I 4bet when deeper but not at 100BB as a bluff.

ok well if you "tried it out" it must work then. carry on

[Matt]

Originally Posted by Speedlimits

um lol. bobbo already went over this. It's because we are getting priced in to call a shove. Sure I 4bet when deeper but not at 100BB as a bluff.

Thing is we're not.

If we 4-bet to 30bb and face a push we need 35% equity to call. If he has a solid pushing range of JJ+ / AK then we are not priced in to call with any hand worse than his pushing range.

Someone 3-betting wide may well be doing it with 'top' 10%. JJ+ / AK is 3%. So in a vacuum if you do this with air it is EV+. Obviously if you do this frequently the fun starts when they adjust their pushing range. In which case you can tighten up your 4-bet range and reap the rewards when they push 88 or AJ or whatever.

[Speedlimits]

Originally Posted by Matt

Thing is we're not.

If we 4-bet to 30bb and face a push we need 35% equity to call. If he has a solid pushing range of JJ+ / AK then we are not priced in to call with any hand worse than his pushing range.

Someone 3-betting wide may well be doing it with 'top' 10%. JJ+ / AK is 3%. So in a vacuum if you do this with air it is EV+. Obviously if you do this frequently the fun starts when they adjust their pushing range. In which case you can tighten up your 4-bet range and reap the rewards when they push 88 or AJ or whatever.

It's more like 32% because there will be dead money in the pot most times. Also since there are 16 variations of AK and only 6 variations of each pocket pair. You are putting yourself in a very marginal situation because you WILL have 32% equity the the majority of the time when 40% of villains range is AK.

[PerDoom]

Originally Posted by Speedlimits

It's more like 32% because there will be dead money in the pot most times. Also since there are 16 variations of AK and only 6 variations of each pocket pair. You are putting yourself in a very marginal situation because you WILL have 32% equity the the majority of the time when 40% of villains range is AK.

You are only 32%+ when you have a pocket pair or greater against JJ+ AK+.

[Matt]

Originally Posted by Speedlimits

It's more like 32% because there will be dead money in the pot most times. Also since there are 16 variations of AK and only 6 variations of each pocket pair. You are putting yourself in a very marginal situation because you WILL have 32% equity the the majority of the time when 40% of villains range is AK.

No really, it's not more like 32%. It's 35%. 526 in pot, 280 to you.

And no you won't have equity to call. Try running some ranges in Pokerstove.