Theory: 4 Bet Sizing

[peten2toms]

Originally Posted by MezmerizePLZ

I like to mix it up, depending on stack sizes and how big I get 3-bet. If someone 3-bets me big and I'm only 100bbs deep, any reasonable 4-bet commits you so i generally just shove, but deeper than 100bbs or against a smaller re-raise i'll generally make it between a minraise 4 bet (yes i do this) or slightly over 3x.

Have been thinking about this. How has the reactions been? Do you get folds alot? If I was min 4bet I would assume major strength.

[MezmerizePLZ]

Min 4-betting isn't my favorite thing to do, and it has pretty mixed results, I've had people shove air, just fold, or flat the min 4-bet OOP with very weak hands (like 89o and such). most people tend to shove their good hands and flat a lot of random stuff they re raised with, tighter multitabling players tend to fold or shove

[Diezel]

It used to be very effective in the beginning, when few people knew it. I think CT's before he joined cardrunners on his old blog was one of the first who talked about it. And about 4bet shoving vs min4bet and fold equity etc..

But I think nowadays now that almost every regular has it incorperated in his game it receives almost as little respect as 3bets and is more to induce a shove then anything else imo

[cartmancop]

I play NL200 at the moment so all my guesses are only for this limit.

When both 100bb deep:
Let´s say I´m cutoff, open for 7$ with 88.
The Button, a 21/17 TAG, 3bets me to 23$, I give him the range 77+,AJs+,KQs,QJs,AJo+,KQo

I decide to 4bet bluff to 60 and give him the pushing range: QQ+,AKs,AKo

i want to handle this situation in a way that it´s for me always EV+, no matter what my opponent does.
The major part of his hands he willl fold preflop and when he pushs, I can call with a positive expectation, because I got nearly 36% equity against his pushing range.

Are my ideas correct??

[peten2toms]

If his pushing range is that narrow then you are in a very small +EV spot. If villain reads meta game at all he might be capable of a wider range then you gave therefore yes it is a call. Brag: I 5 bet shoved 32s yesterday knowing villain could be 4bet bluffing. With small to medium PP against a villain who may 5 bet bluff shove 4 bet shoving might be a better line of defense unless you prefer to call off your stack in a flip. Or we can call his 3bet IP and play poker. There are so many variables obviously which is why I suck at poker when I 6 table. I prefer turning complete junk into a 4bet bluff that I know i am folding rather then a hand where my EV is near neutral because menatlly or rather emotionally I hate flipping and losing.

[ejay]

bobbo how deep would you have to be to 4bet bluff?

also, links to first 3 theory posts.....

[hanoile]

i really like the discussion in this thread concerning 4bet bluffing. my main approach until centered around this using the 2.25/2.5 4bet to counter 3betting laggish regulars (with moderate success, ill probably drop it completely with 100BB now )
my question: are there any specific videos which deal with this topic? i found that this was briefly covered in some of bobbo's but not really in depth, so instead of watching every single one (probably will do this anyway but...): any specific video that stands out concerning 4betbluffing/"bluffshoving"?

edit: @ bobbo: yesterday i watched the NL1k 4 tabling video where this taggish guy "ooooooh" 3bet u _a lot_ during the session.
sure he could just be getting cards and had position on you @ 3 tables if i remember right, but still it felt that he kinda abused the fact, that there u werent really adapting in a) tightning up much and b) only 4bet bluffing really late into the session (75o).

i felt that there were some good spots to 4bet bluff here, also considering u were
deeper than 100BB at least on one table and tightish players like might adapt in opening up their 3betting but most of the time will not 5betshove light over 4bets...

[Brokestyle]

I find people are flatting a lot of my 4-bets now especially when I am OOP. Really annoying, and I hate putting anything close to 33% of effective stacks in as a bluff 4-bet.
I've started opening 2.5x OTB and sometimes Cutoff so I can make smaller 4 bets against the blinds while leveraging their stack. Even with 100BB stacks I can put in less then 25BB if they make the mistake of using the POT 3-bet against me. Of course like everything, the bluff 4-bet is way better with position because good players will rarely flat it.
OOP I find it just isn't as effective so I tend to merge my 4-bet value range a bit and call a shove, especially blind vs blind.

[AltonEllis]

Originally Posted by MezmerizePLZ

Min 4-betting isn't my favorite thing to do, and it has pretty mixed results, I've had people shove air, just fold, or flat the min 4-bet OOP with very weak hands (like 89o and such). most people tend to shove their good hands and flat a lot of random stuff they re raised with, tighter multitabling players tend to fold or shove

The results you describe don't seem really "mixed", getting most players to play bloated pots oop with weak holdings or shoving air is pretty much the nuts, and getting the tighter ones to fold or shove is basically the best option, since when they shove, if you call the sizing of your 4bet doesn't matter anymore, and if you fold you're losing less than if you made a bigger 4bet.

I'm wondering, because I pretty much often/always do the "almost minraise 4bet" (trying to keep it as close as possible to 25bb with 100bb effective stacks without it being less than a minraise), and I've yet to see a compelling argument to change my sizing. So why do you describe your results with this technique as "mixed"?

Edit : that's all obviously considering that you're using a polarized 4bet range, and when shoved on the choice for you to call or fold would be really easy.