Theory: 4 Bet Sizing

[MYNAMEIZGREG]

When making a 4bet, what is your preference in terms of bet size?

When Party was still booming, regulars had a tendency to make huge or oversized 3bets, which led to me generally 4bet shoving when I decided to 4bet. I also think I was one of the first people on that site at MSNL to really get a good understanding for 4bet frequency. It used to rip people apart.

Now, many sites offer a bet pot button, which keeps pots smaller than formerly (even now on PokerStars, I see 3betting a raise of 70-80 at 10/20NL to 280-300), opening up more room for another raise preflop. So, let's take 10/20 as an example:

You raise to 70 in the CO, and button 3bets you to 240-260. You decide it's time for a 4bet. Do you prefer putting in another raise vs shoving? Do you mix it up? When? What size do you prefer if you like making a smaller raise?

[aejones]

550 almost always

[SEABEAST]

yeah 550 is good because it allows you to fold sometimes, not that this is something you should be looking to do too much obviously... but being able to 4bet a lot and fold some of the time is better than being committed every time which means you can't 4bet bluff anywhere near as much. you guys both know this but just spelling it out for other people.

[BobboFitos]

I've strongly believe (and as a result, advocate) that 4bet bluffing w/ 100bb stacks is not pos EV. Simply because unless villain has a skewed "nuts air" ratio when he 3bets, you're risking your stack (since a 4bet DOES commit you) to win the blinds + 3 bet, which (say, 2000:300) is not laying yourself a good price. Also, getting into these pf wars typically cause people to make massive mistakes in large pots simply because assigning ranges is difficult barring information...
If you're getting 3bet often, there are a few things you should do, prior to 4bet bluffing:
1. Tighten up OOP. It sucks but if villain is playing his position well you tip your hat off to them and stop being exploitable.
2. Crush them IP. I call much more in position and let people fire away. People strangely (and this is something I DO advocate) 3bet more in the sb vs button scenario then they do button vs CO (where we are sb in the first example, button in the second). People strangely say it's because "their range is wider, thus I'm ahead of their range, and should put more money into the pot pf". This is really bizarre and simply flawed thoughts. Anyway, I digress, with 100bb you call w/ position, and felt any pair etc.
3. Move seats, if someone is a habitual 3bettor and you cannot get a hold of their frequencies. There is no shame in this, egos tend to cost money in poker.

[Isura]

Yeah I agree with Rob. I don't 4-bet bluff small too often, but when I'm tilting I'll just go ALLIN because its more fun than 4-bet/folding.

[crunchi]

Against light 3bets, particularly in bvb situations i just 4 bet shove:

-Great hands that want a call (AA)
-Great hands that dont want a call (AQ)
-Bluffs (54o)

I'll call or fold with hands like JTs and occasionally also call with AA/KK.

This is at 100nl. Is this a big leak?

[sh58]

i think you have to 4bet bluff a bit against the regs to widen your range a bit. when you start 4betting more frequently you can 4bet with KK and get shoved on by AJ or 99 wheras before there shoving range would probably be AK, QQ+. so whilst maybe bobbo is right that 4bet bluffing is not profitable in the long run with 100BB stacks, it is certainly +EV for metagame.

for some reason people 3bet a hell of a lot on party atm and usually mindlessly, so i 4bet bluff a tonne, and it may be exploitable to a really good player, but it is definitely +EV on it's own against people who seem to 3bet almost every late position raise you make.

i like raising 2.5x or so, a serious amount but leaving enough room to fold if they shove and we have something with little equity.

another added metagame advantage is that 4betting stops getting you pushed around as much, so you tighten up their 3betting range (also making them easier to read)

[PerDoom]

Depends on player. 4bet small against people that 3bet a lot but don't have the cajones to bluff and shove against people that are nuts but not insane enough to call a shove.

Also lol at not 4bet bluffing with 100bb stacks

[SEABEAST]

yeah agree perdoom. i straight up shove against the real crazies who know what i'm doing and will shove their 77 or AJ or whatever but not call with it.

[BobboFitos]

Originally Posted by sh58

i think you have to 4bet bluff a bit against the regs to widen your range a bit. when you start 4betting more frequently you can 4bet with KK and get shoved on by AJ or 99 wheras before there shoving range would probably be AK, QQ+. so whilst maybe bobbo is right that 4bet bluffing is not profitable in the long run with 100BB stacks, it is certainly +EV for metagame.

No, it's not +EV for metagame. EV is either + or - in a vacuum; you could argue that a 4bet bluff is -EV but later compensates enough in order to take the small hit (i'd disagree) or you could say the 4bet bluff is +EV so you do it ignoring metagame (i'd disagree) but you cannot say that it is +EV because it will help later, even though you will lose on the isolated play. (Well, you could, but it would be fallacious )

for some reason people 3bet a hell of a lot on party atm and usually mindlessly, so i 4bet bluff a tonne, and it may be exploitable to a really good player, but it is definitely +EV on it's own against people who seem to 3bet almost every late position raise you make.

Bam, this is correct/good.