4b pot crappy flush draw

[Sc000t]

Again, I don't think its very bad but I think its marginally bad and still think folding is your best option preflop given the situation.

All I have to go on is "pfr was opening q. a few hands" so keep that in mind.

Would you play this hand if it was unsuited?

What about if it was single suited?

What I'm trying to get at, is I think you *might* be over valuing your suits for this particular situation. And going up against a, seemingly aggresive, player with a wide range is going to make it hard to valuate your hand vs his.

Its just going to be hard to extract more value from a worse hand once you complete a flush*.

The times you'll use those flush cards will be as a redraw to a semibluff that got called (meaning you put money in behind and now have to catch up) or they'll be blockers (meaning that your FD is covered and probably are behind or slightly ahead).

The only major value these suits really give you is when you earn FE by pushing (and not getting called often) draws and to be honest, I think the reverse implied odds you gain give back all the value, and then some you earn from these suits.

Add that to the possibilities of it going multiway (which it did) and the possibility of it being 4bet (if you elect to 3bet...which is what happened) and I think it only furthers my points.

To me, it just seems easier to fold preflop and find a better spot with a hand you'll know how to valuate better and therefor be able to extract value from a wider portion of your hand.




*This is why I like 3betting > cold calling, because it makes it easier to get more value from flushes in this situation.




Folding to the 4bet is really easy here. And the flop is DEF a fold. I didn't run the numbers but I highly doubt we should expect to win this 1/5th of the time even. The CO shove over the shortie is such a small range and a BIG portion of that is over pairs + FD and that doesn't even factor in the short stacks hand and the fact that we might have to rely on running cards (that arn't spades) to MAYBE to win us the hand.

[d2themfi]

u wrote a lot of words but forgot the 1 thing that is like 10 times as important than anything....

position. Plus when u 3bet the nature of the strength of ur suits changes dramatically when the SPR is much lower and its usualy a HU pot

still with the button im almost positive I can turn a profit CCing, but IM like 110% sure i can profit 3betting

[Unknown Soldier]

All I have to go on is "pfr was opening q. a few hands" so keep that in mind.

all i have to go on too

Would you play this hand if it was unsuited?

nah

What about if it was single suited?

probably


doesn't what you say apply to 89TJds too?


I know our flush draws aren't to the nuts, but it just gives us that added equity against his overall range. I know we can get into some marginal spots, but that's what happens when you play marginal hands. I don't think that makes it bad to play those hands.

[MadSci]

I agree with lw that we need 25% equity. We have little in terms of backdoor draws and no pair with the board.
Vs a set our equity drops done below 30%. When the AAxx has our suit we have close to 0 equity. Assuming he was at least single suited to start, he will have our suit 1/4 of the time (actually, I think its closer to 1/5 given effects of removal, but then he will be double suited about 1/4 of the time and the second suit could dominate us 1/3 of the times he's double suited which bumps up the times we are dominated).
So if we assume we are dominated about 1/4 of the time, our equity vs the AA hand alone is about 3/4(times we arent dominated)*1/3(chance of the flush getting there) = 1/4 which is B.E., but I would say that CO can dominate us, there are few lower flush draws and he could have a set or two pair with outs to a boat that reduce our equity. I would fold here.
The K high flush draw would be a call and if I had KJT9 with a bd fl dr, I would fist pump it.

[MadSci]

As for pf, I think you have to play this hand on the button always. I think three betting is fine, but multiway, I think you would need to have the guy be jamming any AAxx and the CO to be calling with almost any four that he initially wanted to play to be able to call the 4b. If CO will play disjoint hands like AJ 67 or 9T64 ss, then calling the 4b is +EV.

[grizy123]

I snap call flop with like 3.5 to 1 to call.

The erquity we need is closer to 22%. sure our FD will be bad a significant chunk of the time, but it will be good enough, especially with backdoor straights and twopair/trip type hands backing us up.

10 dollars more I fold vs. most, 20 dollars more I snap fold without much thought.