Deep 25/50 multiway hand with fish

[Patonius2000]

Readless on utg but seems like 1/2 stack nit from small sample size. MP is an ok reg any reads I have on him aren't relevant here. Btn is playing 90/50/37 (yes that's a 37% 3b) over ~100 hands. Btn likes to peel very wide on both the flop and turn both in an out of position (any pair, none nut straight draws on two tone boards etc) and is fairly passive with the initiative. What do we like on the flop?

$5000.00 Pot Limit Omaha Hi - 6 players - View hand 499291
The Official DeucesCracked.com Hand History Converter

BTN: $11588.00
Hero (SB): $25422.00
BB: $21643.00
UTG: $1834.00
MP: $5000.00
CO: $2392.00

Pre Flop: ($75.00) Hero is SB with 2 3 5 6
UTG calls $50, MP raises to $225, 1 fold, BTN calls $225, Hero calls $200, 1 fold, UTG calls $175

Flop: ($950.00) T 2 6 (4 players)
Hero checks, UTG checks, MP checks, BTN bets $450.00, Hero??

[Sc000t]

I like folding pre.

I like leading out here. Especially with the half stack next to act. Bet $800 at the most so he can shove and it will keep betting open. It's a nice way to get $800 to work like $1,600 and get a good read on the deeper stacks the times it happends.

What's your plan here with the check?

For me, my first reaction here is to raise this up but I think that gets me into trouble given your read on the player and the stack sizes. I don't expect MP or UTG to have much since UTG likely would just bet/call his stack and MP would be betting the flop with most hands he was happy with.

So I guess I'd call here and try to control the pot size. If a heart falls on the turn, I'd check it to him. Not sure what I'd do on all the turns, but some I think check and some I think lead.

Are you pownasouras on FTP or something like that? If so, you owned me in Rush PLO on some hand and I hate you for it

Also, how are you passive with the initiative?

[grizy123]

I'd jam this and hope villain folds.

[Patonius2000]

Originally Posted by grizy123

I'd jam this and hope villain folds.

huh?

[Tnoyes]

I can see taking two different lines here;
-Getting it all in then doing a victory dance.
-Doing a victory dance then getting it all in.

The only part of his range that pains us to see is Set with a flush draw. What part of his range do we have poor equity against?

Also, any thoughts on his flop bet sizing? Very small proportionate to the pot. TTxx is rarely betting this, and i feel like if he had an absurd draw, he would push it more trying to get money in on flop where he has equity, vs seeing an ugly turn card and checking behind to play a smaller than desired pot.

[IcarusJam]

Originally Posted by Patonius2000

huh?

i think he means, he doesn't mind putting in tons of monies, but it sux when we are crushed by better draws...

[Patonius2000]

Originally Posted by Sc000t

I like folding pre.

I like leading out here. Especially with the half stack next to act. Bet $800 at the most so he can shove and it will keep betting open. It's a nice way to get $800 to work like $1,600 and get a good read on the deeper stacks the times it happends.

What's your plan here with the check?

For me, my first reaction here is to raise this up but I think that gets me into trouble given your read on the player and the stack sizes. I don't expect MP or UTG to have much since UTG likely would just bet/call his stack and MP would be betting the flop with most hands he was happy with.

So I guess I'd call here and try to control the pot size. If a heart falls on the turn, I'd check it to him. Not sure what I'd do on all the turns, but some I think check and some I think lead.

Are you pownasouras on FTP or something like that? If so, you owned me in Rush PLO on some hand and I hate you for it

Also, how are you passive with the initiative?

Meh disagree about folding pf, if btn was a good reg I was deep with it's probably a fold but I'm really widening my calling range up a ton with this guy in the hand. I'm definitely going to get in to a lot of tough spots post flop (i.e. I get top 5% of flops and am posting the hand in a forum) tough spots don't necessarily equate to -ev, you're just giving yourself a chance to make a bunch of mistakes post flop.

Flop I think a lead is good too, a load of times we can get hu with btn due to relative position and we also don't allow dominating draws/backdoors to call behind cheaply if it checks through to btn he bets we call. My plan with checking was to raise call if utg bet, check call if pfr bet (I think his cbetting range is v tight here so I'm just c/c check shoving 'good' turns [i say good but there aren't many good ones, more check shove the ones that aren't really bad]) and finally to raise/fold if btn bet.

I wouldn't raise fold here as std but I think he's going to peel a raise with his entire betting range. When I say passive with initiative it means exactly that, when it checks through to him he has the initiative, and in this particular spot he is passive, i.e. he checks a lot. I think he rarely bet folds in these spots with pure air but he's going to bet pretty much any piece without much of a plan. And because he's super cally, given what I'm assuming about his range I'm getting him to call a raise and fold a ton of turns because his flop range is so wide and his turn stacking off range so tight. This is really high variance though because I'm going to have to bet/call some turns with pretty bad equity when he makes a bigger two pair or has a dominating draw.

[Patonius2000]

Originally Posted by grizy123

I'd jam this and hope villain folds.

Originally Posted by Tnoyes

I can see taking two different lines here;
-Getting it all in then doing a victory dance.
-Doing a victory dance then getting it all in.

The only part of his range that pains us to see is Set with a flush draw. What part of his range do we have poor equity against?

Also, any thoughts on his flop bet sizing? Very small proportionate to the pot. TTxx is rarely betting this, and i feel like if he had an absurd draw, he would push it more trying to get money in on flop where he has equity, vs seeing an ugly turn card and checking behind to play a smaller than desired pot.

Raise calling is bad vs this player. His stacking off range is a set (all of them with/without fds) and maybe top pair+nfd/overpair + nfd. The assumption about bet sizing is pretty rash also. Granted you can often read more in to bet sizing with weaker players because they often size their bets based on the strength of their hand, but with this player I had no sizing reads and you can't just make up sizing reads without having them be actual reads. I mean you're going to discount TTxx and big draws because he bet half pot? What if someone bets 1/2 pot with their entire range, then you look pretty silly.

[Patonius2000]

As it happens we got the fistpump!!

$5000.00 Pot Limit Omaha Hi - 6 players - View hand 499291
The Official DeucesCracked.com Hand History Converter

BTN: $11588.00
Hero (SB): $25422.00
BB: $21643.00
UTG: $1834.00
MP: $5000.00
CO: $2392.00

Pre Flop: ($75.00) Hero is SB with 2 3 5 6
UTG calls $50, MP raises to $225, 1 fold, BTN calls $225, Hero calls $200, 1 fold, UTG calls $175

Flop: ($950.00) T 2 6 (4 players)
Hero checks, UTG checks, MP checks, BTN bets $450.00,

Hero raises to $1850, UTG folds, MP folds, BTN calls $1400

Turn: ($4650.00) Q (2 players)
Hero bets $3150.00

[Sc000t]

I'm still not convinced calling preflop is optimal. Perhaps thats another debate entirely but my main reasons behind folding preflp is that your hand isn't that great, it's going multiway and some stack sizes are deep and your hand isn't going to flop very well. You'll never hit a strong top two pair and rarely flop a nutty draw. Most flops you're going to have to check fold and when good money goes in...more times than not I think you're not happy with this hand. I'm not saying that you cant play it well post flop...I just think there are too many times you'll miss the flop and be forced to fold to make up for the small amount of times you can maybe flop well and maybe get the money in ahead.

I misjudged his betting and bet/calling range on the flop...or my range was much different than yours let's say. The "passive with initiative" is still throwing me off.

When I say passive with initiative it means exactly that, when it checks through to him he has the initiative, and in this particular spot he is passive, i.e. he checks a lot

I think he rarely bet folds in these spots with pure air but he's going to bet pretty much any piece without much of a plan

These two sentances back to back confuse me. If he is passive in this situation, how can you say he is betting any peice without a plan and probably calling everything he bets?

I was assuming since he was passive, I wasn't expecting him to bet/fold much. And what I meant by that is that he is only betting hands he is comfortable calling or raising with and that boils down to sets, top two pair, strong draws and strong pair + draws and combo draws. Would you agree or am I way off here?

So maybe we should talk about what we expect this player to bet into this field with and what he is likely to bet/fold vs bet/call vs bet/shove.

Once you check, I don't think your hand is bad enough to fold so I think we can throw that out safely.

Raising or calling is going to depend on the range we give him and how he reacts to a call or a raise. If he is never bet/folding (ie betting bad hands) then his betting range is narrow and tight and weighted toward strong hands and draws that he is comfortable at least bet/calling.

The range of hands he'd be bet/calling or bet/shoving don't play well vs your hand unless that range is looser and wider.

I just ran some calcs and I wasn't aware how strong your hand was againt some hands in his range. I'm starting to think check/raising here is the best play, especially vs that small half pot bet. And I think it's a fold if he shoves after you check raise. The calculations are pretty easy to make on how wide he needs his bet/shoving range needs to be before a call with our hand is optimal and I don't think it's very wide.

So if he is only betting those hands that which he is shoving then obv I don't like the check/raise. If he is betting a lot of hands he'd bet/call. Naked nut flush, pair plus flush draws, 7896 no flush draw, naked top two then I think check/raising is smart with a plan of folding to a 3bet.

On the various turns when called we can check and we can bet depending on what falls I think.

On this turn I'm betting happily and getting it in.

I think the turn bet sizing can have pros and cons though. Your hand is good a lot...even against a lot of non flush draw two pair hands; but betting less leaves bad stack/pot ratios and gives him more implied odds with better draws. I think i'd bet full pot here, not to try and get him to fold better hands, but to decrease the value of the play on the river.

I think we'd like a fold even though we are better than a lot of the hands he can have...and are never going to get him to fold a set.