Starting out with PLO

[Pickaface]

Hi all,

I decided to try PLO a bit yesterday after getting bored of NLHE after a grinding session. I didn't even knew the rules (lol) and googled for "PLO rules" and learned that it's pot limit and two cards of your own and 3 cards of the board counts.

I really liked PLO even though it's only been one day that I've played it. I'm usually playing NL50 and have a solid bankroll for $50 stakes 50+ buyins although I know that the bankroll requirements for PLO are higher since the variance.

I want to ask you PLO experts what would you do if you just started out with PLO today? I will buy the PLO book by Tri because I've heard it's very good and I wont go broke. Other then what would you do? Every advice is appreciated.

[Sc000t]

Play a lot.
No matter what, you're going to need to log a ton of hands to get good at a game. Having a solid NLHE background will help but some things will translate well and some things won't. Regardless of what else you do or don't do to improve, you are going to need to put yourself in all the positions hundreds of times before you can start to recognize various player types, playing patterns, ranges, frequencies etc.

Analyze your play
This is easier said than done but it's important. Save HHs that give you trouble and go back and try to figure out the optimal way to play them. Be honest with yourself and try to approach the situation as it came up and don't let the outcome influence your reasoning. Look at the hands players are playing from various positions and compare them to how aggressive or passive that player is overall. Look at your own play to see where you can add value in places and more importantly save money by not putting yourself in bad spots where you're forced to call with bad hands or spots where you're betting but never getting called with worse. Analysis of your game I think is easily one of the best ways to improve the fastest and it's the most cost effective because its free...especially for a player starting out.

Post in the forums
Get a 2p2 account if you don't already have them and live in the forum. Post here. Post on Cardrunners. Post anywhere (2p2 being the best imo) that people are talking about PLO strategy. Reply to every thread you see and explain why you think the way you do. Don't be a dick and pretend like you know it all because you don't...nobody does. I've seen micro grinders teach things to HS pros. Posting hands lets you think through a whole hand step by step and lets you dissect it with other smart players. In the process of commenting, arguing, agreeing, explaining and thinking about all those hands and general strategy threads, you'll develop as a player into one that thinks about the game more than 95% of the opponents you play against and that is the reason you'll be a favorite in the games you decide to play in. This is also free so very cost effective.

Talk in-depth with other high level thinking players
You'll see this a ton in interviews from big name highstake players. Everyone of them has another player (or two or three...) that they spoke to about in-depth high level strategies. This is a great way to get better at playing regulars. Now instead of talking about playing random no names on the forums, you can talk about how it is best to beat someone that thinks about poker like you do. And while this is happening you'll expose leaks in your own game that you can plug that other solid players might be capitalizing on. I think you can get to a certain point where reading all the books and posting in all the forums will only get you so far. Sort of like the efficient frontier of poker knowledge available to the general public. To go the extra step to get past this and to beat the players at that level you need to do things like talk in-depth about theory with other players like yourself.

Watch videos
Probably the best way to get better the fastest is by watching videos. I don't think this is the best way to "learn" because you won't have all the reasoning behind why the coach is doing what he is doing. And I don't know of any video that explains the coaches whole general strategy to playing the game...you just get a slight glimpse of how he plays certain hands a certain way...but there is a whole method to the madness (or lack there of) that isn't covered in the video and it is something that each player needs to develop on their own. Despite that, watching video reaffirms strategies or lines you might of thought of and can open your eyes to new ways of playing. I use to play a very TAG style in NLHE until I watched just a preview of a green plastic video. Ever since then I realized that there was a whole new way of playing and thinking about the game and I went from playing ABC tight aggro style and letting my good hands win more often than my bad ones to stealing pots and keeping a wide range and not being so readable. Today, there is a lot of different styles and you'll need to know how to play all of them. Some situations in some games will require a TAG approach and others might require a LAG approach...you need to tailor your game to be adaptive and to recognize which times call for which styles of play. And a good way to learn multiple styles is by watching video of probably some of the best poker players in the world play that style to perfection in some of these videos. This can probably go on the efficient frontier line of poker knowledge as well...most players playing mid stakes games or above probably have watched videos from sites like these.




This is where I would start. I probably wouldn't buy a book but I don't think Tris would really hurt you or anything. I don't think any one thing is going to teach you how to play PLO well. It will come with experience and the effort you put into developing your game. A bad player can play a million hands of poker and still be awful. A smart person can play 20,000 hands of poker knowing nothing at hand one and be a great player. The difference being what each player puts into getting better and how he thinks about the game.

[Pickaface]

Originally Posted by Sc000t

Play a lot.
No matter what, you're going to need to log a ton of hands to get good at a game. Having a solid NLHE background will help but some things will translate well and some things won't. Regardless of what else you do or don't do to improve, you are going to need to put yourself in all the positions hundreds of times before you can start to recognize various player types, playing patterns, ranges, frequencies etc.

Analyze your play
This is easier said than done but it's important. Save HHs that give you trouble and go back and try to figure out the optimal way to play them. Be honest with yourself and try to approach the situation as it came up and don't let the outcome influence your reasoning. Look at the hands players are playing from various positions and compare them to how aggressive or passive that player is overall. Look at your own play to see where you can add value in places and more importantly save money by not putting yourself in bad spots where you're forced to call with bad hands or spots where you're betting but never getting called with worse. Analysis of your game I think is easily one of the best ways to improve the fastest and it's the most cost effective because its free...especially for a player starting out.

Post in the forums
Get a 2p2 account if you don't already have them and live in the forum. Post here. Post on Cardrunners. Post anywhere (2p2 being the best imo) that people are talking about PLO strategy. Reply to every thread you see and explain why you think the way you do. Don't be a dick and pretend like you know it all because you don't...nobody does. I've seen micro grinders teach things to HS pros. Posting hands lets you think through a whole hand step by step and lets you dissect it with other smart players. In the process of commenting, arguing, agreeing, explaining and thinking about all those hands and general strategy threads, you'll develop as a player into one that thinks about the game more than 95% of the opponents you play against and that is the reason you'll be a favorite in the games you decide to play in. This is also free so very cost effective.

Talk in-depth with other high level thinking players
You'll see this a ton in interviews from big name highstake players. Everyone of them has another player (or two or three...) that they spoke to about in-depth high level strategies. This is a great way to get better at playing regulars. Now instead of talking about playing random no names on the forums, you can talk about how it is best to beat someone that thinks about poker like you do. And while this is happening you'll expose leaks in your own game that you can plug that other solid players might be capitalizing on. I think you can get to a certain point where reading all the books and posting in all the forums will only get you so far. Sort of like the efficient frontier of poker knowledge available to the general public. To go the extra step to get past this and to beat the players at that level you need to do things like talk in-depth about theory with other players like yourself.

Watch videos
Probably the best way to get better the fastest is by watching videos. I don't think this is the best way to "learn" because you won't have all the reasoning behind why the coach is doing what he is doing. And I don't know of any video that explains the coaches whole general strategy to playing the game...you just get a slight glimpse of how he plays certain hands a certain way...but there is a whole method to the madness (or lack there of) that isn't covered in the video and it is something that each player needs to develop on their own. Despite that, watching video reaffirms strategies or lines you might of thought of and can open your eyes to new ways of playing. I use to play a very TAG style in NLHE until I watched just a preview of a green plastic video. Ever since then I realized that there was a whole new way of playing and thinking about the game and I went from playing ABC tight aggro style and letting my good hands win more often than my bad ones to stealing pots and keeping a wide range and not being so readable. Today, there is a lot of different styles and you'll need to know how to play all of them. Some situations in some games will require a TAG approach and others might require a LAG approach...you need to tailor your game to be adaptive and to recognize which times call for which styles of play. And a good way to learn multiple styles is by watching video of probably some of the best poker players in the world play that style to perfection in some of these videos. This can probably go on the efficient frontier line of poker knowledge as well...most players playing mid stakes games or above probably have watched videos from sites like these.




This is where I would start. I probably wouldn't buy a book but I don't think Tris would really hurt you or anything. I don't think any one thing is going to teach you how to play PLO well. It will come with experience and the effort you put into developing your game. A bad player can play a million hands of poker and still be awful. A smart person can play 20,000 hands of poker knowing nothing at hand one and be a great player. The difference being what each player puts into getting better and how he thinks about the game.

Oh this post is sick! Thanks for this, I've read it now several times and will copy and save it on my computer. :-)

The reason why I want to buy the book is that I've heard that he's talking about starting hands etc, and don't know anything about it yet. Many hands look pretty to me. Where should I start with this?

[Tnoyes]

Have a friend or significant other beat you with a stick 3-5 times a day to prepare you for the pain to ensue.

[yurk23]

I don't have alot of experience with PLO but the one piece of advice I would give is to remember that PLO is a postflop game, not a preflop game. So, starting hand requirements are centered around postflop playability and their ability to make nut hands (top set, nut draws, etc). Don't play huge pots (at least early on before experience allows it) with non-nut draws and hands with no redraws. Maybe this will help, but if not just do everything Scooot said and ignore my imput.

[robbyd86]

If you're currently playing 50nl i would for sure start at 25plo maybe even 10plo just to get the hang of it. PLO is super swingy and can kill your bankroll, especially if you're lacking experience.

PLO forums seem to be picking up a bit here, perhaps i'll get more involved. I kind of stopped playing b/c i wanted to focus on NL solely but I really do enjoy PLO a lot. The vids on here helped me a lot when i first started playing. Scoot is awesome and Claytons first couple vids he talked a lot about preflop starting hands which helped, cause i was clueless.

[Pickaface]

Originally Posted by robbyd86

If you're currently playing 50nl i would for sure start at 25plo maybe even 10plo just to get the hang of it. PLO is super swingy and can kill your bankroll, especially if you're lacking experience.

PLO forums seem to be picking up a bit here, perhaps i'll get more involved. I kind of stopped playing b/c i wanted to focus on NL solely but I really do enjoy PLO a lot. The vids on here helped me a lot when i first started playing. Scoot is awesome and Claytons first couple vids he talked a lot about preflop starting hands which helped, cause i was clueless.

Yeah, I definitely woudln't start playing 50plo, maybe 10plo at highest until I'm a winner in that stake and move up.

[Sc000t]

This was a response I wrote up over two years ago...lmao. I've since posted this a few times in various places to people asking about switching to PLO.

The whole thread I think is pretty good. I'd suggest checking it out.

http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/38...cussion-35000/

When I made the switch to playing PLO as my main game, I had played NLHE cash 3/6 and lower for a few years. Also played stud 5/10 and some 10/20, all on Pacific poker. I had a little 2/4 and lower PLO but nothing serious, as I could just nut peddle and win against those bad players.

The first things that really stuck in my mind as it related to PLO were “In NLHE you play for pairs and two pairs, where as in PLO you play for straights and flushes.” I’m not sure where I heard/read it, but it just made sense to me. A ton of money that I was winning in the bad Pacific games were NLHE players stacking off with AAxx. It would be the only hand they’d raise preflop and they’d stack off on almost any flop not realizing the different dynamics of PLO. The other saying, I guess, that got my mind on track in PLO was “Its not uncommon at all to raise (or reraise) preflop in PLO and check/fold the flop; whereas in NLHE this happens much much less.”

Both those little sayings, if you will, kind of helped my mind switch from thinking like a NLHE player to a PLO player. I’m not saying they are set in stone and 100% accurate but it gets you mind thinking in the right direction.

From there I would just play all shorthanded games on Pac until they shut me out because of the legislation. I switched to stars and built another roll up from nothing using PLO. Play was bad, but not idiotic like on Pacific and I had to tweak my game up. I quickly realized that at a table full of nut peddlers, its just a bunch of people trying to out cooler one another and that in the long run, there would be no significant winner, aside from PokerStars. I started playing shorthanded games (pre HU tables) and lagging up my play.

About here is where I learned that you NEED to be adaptable to play PLO. Its probably one of the biggest, most important traits a PLO player can have. Theres no 100% correct way to play all of the time, you need to be aware of the table dynamics and your image and adjust accordingly. Some games are going to be deep stacked, some will be ultra aggressive, some will only have one fish on you left etc.. and all these things should come into effect when you make your decisions. Sometimes its appropriate to nut pedal and sometimes you need to go ultra lag on a table. Like chucky said, it all depends.

I guess that’s the quick story of my transition to PLO. Right now, most of my play is at the HU tables, but am currently making my way back to some 6max games to be a more rounded player.

As far as your specific questions in your post:

Most of the questions are vague, but I’ll do best in answering them. The table conditions/dynamics just really come into play to get into specifics.

-the different values in position, ie can i lag it up in position like i can in nl if i am competent post flop.

Preflop hand values are pretty meaningless in PLO for the most part (Yeah, you heard me). You need to play hands that work together yes, but I think that your hand selection compared to the flop is much more important than what you choose to raise and call with preflop.

Position is HUGE in PLO. Especially in agro games, the ability to control the hand post flop is essential to a players success in PLO. Learning to 3bet in position will add a ton of value to your game, and you don’t necessarily need the best hand to do this with either.


-how do i play draws, should i be playing them fast as a result of the fact that my PLO draws tend to be bigger than my nlh draws, or should i work on pot control with draws.

Again, like chucky said, it depends. Everything comes into play when playing draws, how many opponents in the game, how many in the hand, stack sizes, player reads, player positions, preflop action, what sort of draw is it….. This question could be answered 20 different ways depending on the situation.

In general with big draws, I play them aggressively… in general. Especially if I’m OOP, I like to lead out so if it comes I can still value bet down and have my hand not so face up, or even check it and see if I can get a smaller draw or a bluff to bet into me. Try not to chase non nut hands, and if say you’re faced with two players all in and you have the second nut flush draw, take note that theres a reasonably good possibility that you could be drawing slim against the NFD.


-what is the one pair hand of plo, ie what hands do i need to make sure not to fall in love with if i want to be good.

Def AAxx. You need to realize that AA really won’t hold up a large % of the time by the river. More people lose money on AAxx than any other hand, and I’d bet that most novice players probably lose more than they win with it. I tend to play this hand cautious post flop, just because unless I’ve been at a table awhile, or I’m with familiar opponents, AAxx is the first hand you’re put on when you 3bet and if that’s what you actually have, it makes it very difficult to play post flop.

-what kind of betting sizes should i use, right now i basically pot it unless i am making some sort of thin value bet or inducing a raise.

This is argued a lot. I’d say, do whatever you’re comfortable with, but be consistent. I personally don’t bet pot. I pot preflop for raises, but post flop, all my bets are slightly less than pot. I think players always pot, because PLO is such a drawy game and they want maximum value from their made hands, and maximum fold equity with their draws. At least, that’s why I think players start to use the “always bet pot” mentality. I like playing smaller pots, I’m not very worried about being outdrawn because I believe I have a good enough ability to just c/f when draws get there and not lose more money. Also I like the ability to play slightly smaller pots on the flop and turn, where it leaves more money on average in the stacks by the river so there’s more play and more value weighted on the decisions. It’s really just a preference thing though, just be sure to stay consistent in your betting.

-what are the common mistakes that plo players make, ie donks in hold em cant fold one pair, open limp too much, call oop too much...

Chasing non nut hands comes to mind first, especially in multi way pots. Only raising preflop with a SMALL % of hands (mostly AAxx) is the other. To raise and reraise in this game, you need to mix up your hands so its no face up post flop. The ability to lay down the second nuts is something many NLHE players can never do. And bluffing, yes bluffing. This game is easier to bluff in and there are perfect spots against the right opponents. Using blockers etc… are just things you don’t think about in NLHE that come into play in PLO. Playing small pairs for set value is another no no.


-is open limping cool, i basically never open limp, is that bad?

I almost never open limp. I think most players on 2p2 would agree that it rarely should be done in most games.

-any adjustments on starting hands i need to be making as a result of implied odds or their reverse that i may not be aware of.

Play hands that work together. Hands that work in more than one way are great ie suited connecting cards. TT89ss for example has good possibility to make a wrap, flush, set or draws to all three even. Post flop, you want possibilities, try to avoid playing A722ss just because the A is suited, yes its good to have the suited ace, but you’re going to want other options when the flop comes.

-how much should i alter my raise calling range in comparison to my raising range. is calling oop as big of a deal as it is he.

Calling OOP is a big deal. Its hard to play draws and semi strong hands OOP in general. You’re open raising range should be larger than your calling raises range I think. In MP,CO, BTN if I can open raise, I look for almost any reasonable excuse to. I like to keep an agro image up and like to take control going into preflop hands and I want to be in position against as few opponents as possible. What I’m trying to say is, its easy for me to open raise a large % of hands. But to call someone elses open raise, I tend to tighten up, ESPECIALLY OOP. Also, exercise caution in raising and reraising from the blinds. Until you develop a good sense of how to play OOP against multiple opponents in raised pots, I’d advise playing very tight in the blinds, unless you’re short stacked.

[Sc000t]

and please remember that was written over 2 years ago. I could and probably should update it a little but it still has some good stuff in there. Check out the whole thread... I'm not going to post all the good responses but there are def some gems in there for players starting out.

[Pickaface]

Wow thanks Sc00t, I'll definitely check out that. Very appreciated. :-)