Monkeytilting and craziness

[Possu81]

At first, I would like to thank you for this site and the PROs ruling it. You are making awesome job out there. I don't know if you are reading these forums but it would be nice to get your comments because you are talking so much about mental health etc. in your videos. English is not my first language, so I hope you understand me tho I might be using some strange words or so.

My problem and question concerns about tilting and how to avoid it. I think it's best to ask this for you because I really feel you know these problems well. At least somebody might know. I feel that I am not alone when I am talking about monkeytilting.

I know that tilting is much like an alcoholism, which is, unfortunately, deeply in my bloodlines. Maybe I can't get rid of it completely ever but there must be ways to live with it.

My backgroung as a player is that I have played this game more than 2 years now and 1.5 year "seriously". I have taken my time on each level, played NL100 and NL200 almost an year. Right now I am definetely a winning player on NL400 at Party Poker. The problem is that I am going completely mad from time to time. See this fresh graph:

http://i214.photobucket.com/albums/c...81/madness.jpg

During this season I had two serious downswings caused by an "black out". Typical downfall starts when I make a very stupid play or get many bad beats in a row. I just try to win that back in hurry, especially if it was my own mistake.

Even this "downswing" places my ptBB pretty low, it's 3.09 after 75k hands played on NL400. I don't have many sessions in a month where I lose, maybe 1-3 but when I lose, I lose A LOT making awful bluffs against TPTK style hand for stacks and calling everything even I know they are just valuebetting me with a big hand. I try to win every hand when tilting. This hand is an good example about this complete madness
http://www.pokerhand.org/?1970785

Ok, I understand that I shouldn't play when I am tired and I should stop before I lose too much but somehow I just can't do that. The beast has awoken in me. The only thing that stops me losing my whole bankroll is that I am too afraid of going broke and I protect my bankroll normally like it's all I have which is not a good thing at all. I will stop eventually when I am stuck so much that I just can't play it back during the same session. After that, I just can't think anything else than poker. I am playing and playing so long that I can get break even and then maybe keep a break and relax.

I just can't describe how hard this tilting is for my poker career. It reduces my winnings and especially makes the game mentally overwhelming. Just now I feel myself stressed and tired after I have grinded those loses back almost like a week now. Basically I haven't done anything else. The first thing when I go to bed is how should play tomorrow and the first thing when I wake is how much I should win back today and try concentrate to make it.
I am happy that I am break even now but this can't continue like this. I can't sleep all daytimes and play the rest of my time including nights.

So, what should I do? What's the first thing to avoid tilting? How could I limit my time to play? I know that I should get other hobbies and I have other hobbies but the problem is that everything is ok until I tilt again and start grinding loses back like a maniac.

Any ideas how to achieve solid strategy to play keeping the fact in mind that I am easily tilting type. Should I stop when I lose two buying, four buy ins or how many? Do you have any limits in your game?

Forgive me my long post. It was kinda hard to descripe this in a compact mode.

[jgunnip]

Ok, I understand that I shouldn't play when I am tired and I should stop before I lose too much but somehow I just can't do that.

I don't think you really do understand because if you did that you wouldn't keep playing. There is nothing wrong with quitting a session down a few buyins. There is nothing wrong with quitting a session because some fish is trash talking and tilting you.

Also I think in general the idea that "I'm a winning player, but I tilt too much," or "I'd be crushing this game if I didn't tilt so much" is really really bad. You're just lying to yourself and letting yourself off the hook. In reality you aren't a winning player and you aren't crushing the games. (not saying you personally, just in general too these comments)

Some things poker related that you can do would be to limit the length of your sessions. Keep them small or take breaks every hour or so to refresh your mind and refocus. Another thing you can and should do is get better at quitting. One thing I try to do is whenever I'm playing poker and the thought comes into my mind, "I should quit right now, but..." I just quit right there no exceptions. Its interesting because the only times I have that thought are when I think I should quit because the table is full of regs and I know I should switch or because I'm getting tired or because I'm running bad and starting to steam or because I'm running good(!!!) and starting to aggressively spew or because I know I've been playing a long session and its probably a good idea to take a break or etc etc you get the idea.

It doesn't matter if I have the seat to the left of a huge fish who I'm 300bb deep with or there's a reg spewing off buyin after buyin since he's on tilt, I just quit because knowing that I can make myself quit when my heart may not want to is much more valuable than the buyin or two I may or may not of won if I had stayed at the table a little longer because more often than not when I do keep playing it just turns out bad. Having self control is probably the most important thing to have in regards to poker and tilting.

Here's a very good, relevant article,
http://www.tommyangelo.com/articles/betcha_cant.htm

There's no secret tip that's going to prevent you from tilting and its not going to stop over night, but you can get better at recognizing the symptoms for your tilt and doing whatever you can to stop the tilt before it really sets in. GL!

[Possu81]

"I should quit right now, but..." I just quit right there no exceptions.

This is an VERY important point. So many times I have felt it would be a good time to quit now and relax even session is just marginally positive. Then, I am starting to play the last orbit and get KK and lose all in against AA or a set. I immediately steam and sit back if sit out was enabled in some tables. I somehow feel that the whole game is against me and I will show them. This can't be true, so wrong!

I have also started to mention how much I win and lose for my parents because I have felt that I need to justify my playing somehow in a long run. This action has placed great pressures to myself. Maybe I am unconsciously trying to win more and more.

Thanks for the link and an informative reply.

[etown]

hey jgunnip put a great reply with lots of ideas on how you can remedy this. I think the most helpful thing is having shorter sessions.

I do think most ppl need a stop loss when they are out of the comfort zone of how much they have lost. For me personally if im 10 tabling my stop loss is about 10-12 buyins because if your playing a lag hyperaggressive style i know that there is variance and i can have an up swing of that many buyin in the next 5 hands so im comfortable if im down that much. However somedays u have to know what makes you tilt and know that when that event happens u have to shut off your comp. Doesnt matter if you have a few free hands in the orbit or not if u cant play optimally just shut it down.

Another thought from the money side is arrange a salary or something to pay your self so if you want to withdraw 5 buyins a week from your roll or whatever works for you do it. Dont allow your swings to affect you on the money front. If you have a padded roll and do have a positive winrate, it should be no problem.

[pikkupossu]

love your name OP.

if you are a winner in the game, and you know your weak spot is playing long sessions when you get stuck or just long sessions in general. avoid it. the solution to most problems, is avoiding all roads that lead to the problem. if i know that the session isnt going well, my frame of mind is already not in a optimal setting. if i start to feel tired, i stop. if i get distracted and make a mistake, and find myself sulking over that mistake i stop. i truly think having the discipline to walk away is one of the major factors thats seperates players that will move up, and players that will end up grinding it out at a meager winrate wondering why they arent at the next level yet.

like in many of the SEABEAST videos, he states, you have to have an attacking mindset. you have to be hungry. this is very true. but if you take this too far, it is not your normal game. if you start deviating from your regular game which you are accustomed to, everyone else at the table benefits.

personally, i like playing short sessions. a lot of my friends will put pressure on me to play more hands in a month. unlike most poker players, i mainly play for side income and dont see poker as a job or anything. this generally has me putting in the least amount of hands and hours in any month. but i am ok with that and extremely comfortable with my winrate when i do play. fact of the matter is, while i may only get 20-25 hours in a month, 90%+ of those hours, i will be playing my A+ game. i'd rather have that then 60h of month where i'll be playing A+ for only 18h and a B or worse game for the rest.

definitely setup a stop loss. i can count on one hand how many times i get stuck and end up playing a marathon session to try to break even. it doesnt happen very often. there is nothing wrong with stopping for the day, doing something else. know that tomorrow is another day. the fish arent going anywhere, they arent going to just vanish overnight. if you have a session in the morning/afternoon and you do poorly, go work out, have a nice dinner. then if you feel good and refreshed in the evening, fire up the tables again.

instead of steaming at the tables. close them all. open up pokertracker. replay all of your hands. take notes of the lines regs use against you. take notes of how the fish play. just because you arent playing poker doesnt mean you cant improve your game.

if all of that fails. keep a bottle of jaloviina next to your computer.

[etown]

Great reply pikkupossu
you never fail to give me insight

you are lucky that it is a side income and u dont need to put in the hours like some of us but your right about what you said about stopping and go through pokertracker
evaluating your own
and others play is very valuble and its great learning a villains line than pwning them when they use it

[Efficent]

Sorry for being a bit of an absentee mod lately guys.

OP, first own your tilt.
If you re-read your post youll notice you describe tilt as an entity, you give it credit for being a beast, taking you over. You describe the experience as a blackout. Bottom line is you feel you are finding yourself in situations your the rational logical and responsible part of your mind loses control. In this scenario you arnt playing poker, your being played by your baser instincts. What to do?

The easiest place to start is to describe tilt, to others and in your own head, as not something that happens to you, but as a state where you are not making good decisions. It seems like a small thing but its a pretty well established phenomenon in research on addiction. Thinking of an addiction as something that has control renders you helpless in your own head.

Second, if your losing the battle of will, consider that may not need to win the battle, you may be able to avoid fighting it all together. The excellent suggestions to shorten your sessions or have a stop loss are techniques to do this. Another addiction analogy - if your trying to quit smoking you don't keep a full pack of smokes in your pocket.

A person who loses control by definition had control at some point. When you are in control it is your responsibility to avoid situations that aren't you prepared to handle. Tilt is a matter of degree, and the more you tilt the less capable you are of pulling yourself away. You simply must quit when you are only tilting a little, or better, even before your mental stat starts affecting your decisions at all.

The successful player does this by adding a dimension to his game, monitoring constantly not only the conditions of the table and other players, but himself as well. After every big pot, every big loss, hell every hand you must be in the habit of taking a self inventory. This, like all aspects of wining poker, takes practice, repetition and discipline.

good luck

[aejones]

Possu, sorry for not responding to this earlier.

Near the beginning of my career, tilt issues were my biggest concern (although it is possible that I didn't recognize it, and suffered from playing a lot of my B and C game). With experience comes mental toughness, and there is a certain degree of maturity that comes with playing your best game. I've finally reached a point in my career, through playing less tables, concentrating, and mentally focusing on poker for many hours a day, where I feel like I'm playing my best (or close to my best) game nearly 100% of the time.

I feel like I've eliminted tilt in a somewhat interesting manner- I've become so good at poker that I'm nearly above tilt. What does that mean? Monkey tilt (open shoving on tables, constantly randomly bluffing with overbets, etc.) is a bad (albeit somewhat rare) state to be in. If you really have that severe of a tilt issue, you probably also have personality and emotional issues- of what I'm sorry about, but this post won't concern you, because I'm not a psychologist. By getting MUCH better at poker, you lessen tilt.

How?

Well, I've gotten to a point where I'm fairly closed minded about some poker situations. I cured my FPS by playing somewhat straightforward, and with that straightforwardness comes a willingness to say "this line is always right." What I mean is, frequently I tell people that IM me hands "your line is retarded, it makes no sense, what the hell are you doing?" They usually tell me to be open minded, think about this, think about that, etc. Frequently though, they're just leveling themselves. They are playing bad poker.

When I sit around and say "this guy is awful, he does this" I really think these people are terrible poker players. Why? I feel like I've become so good that I have certain lines that are just theoretically better than others... thus, when I find myself losing a few big pots and almost tilting, the problem corrects itself. I mentally think to myself, "what the hell are you doing, that is retarded, you're better than that, don't be just another idiot."

What I'm getting at is this: in the past, I'd justify my bad play- "this can't be that bad!" But now that I know how awful some lines are (say, you have some kind of a big draw and you check-call an all in or something getting bad odds), well, you clearly should not be taking them.

This realization, at least in part, is a huge development to people's games, and is what sets them (us) apart from the donks.

[Rivfader]

I usually don't have tilt problems but often after a bad session I can't think of anything but some hands I played, like: " ****, why did I bluff that guy or called that one shove". To get poker out of my head I like to watch an episode or two of some good TV-serie. It really helps.

Jatka vaan partyfisujen rankaisemista, kyllä se siitä

[as-510]

Exercising is a good counter.