Nl200 6max: MPGK OOP vs. 2 Tags - Flopplay?

[Prologion]

Poker Stars, $1/$2 NL Hold'em Cash Game, 6 Players
LeggoPoker.com - Hand History Converter

BTN: $200
SB: $221.90
BB: $200
UTG: $387
Hero (MP): $229.45
CO: $333.55

Pre-Flop: K J dealt to Hero (MP)
UTG folds, Hero raises to $7, CO calls $7, BTN calls $7, 2 folds

Flop: ($24) J 9 Q (3 Players)
[color=red]Hero ?

Villains are 2 standard-TAGs.
I just would be interested what options we have here?
I think C/Calling sucks 3-way OOP.
cbetting imo makes only sense if I am willing to turn my hand later into a bluff by barelling through b/c there are too less worse hands which can call to val.bet here with the intention of checking it down later.

What you think about that spot?

[Gerv]

I would be betting and have the option of turning my hand into a bluff aka putting pressure on KQ/AQ or random flushdraws

Fact is that CO is in the sandwhich and plays superface up while BTN can still peel it off if he thinks your cbetting wide hence the turnbarrel becomes more lucrative.

I might be wrong with the following statement but I think we are in this kind of spot that is comparable to the PLO situation. that is we bet to take it down.

[Prologion]

Originally Posted by Gerv

I would be betting and have the option of turning my hand into a bluff aka putting pressure on KQ/AQ or random flushdraws

Fact is that CO is in the sandwhich and plays superface up while BTN can still peel it off if he thinks your cbetting wide hence the turnbarrel becomes more lucrative.

I might be wrong with the following statement but I think we are in this kind of spot that is comparable to the PLO situation. that is we bet to take it down.

agree,
though I think you don`t have enough FEQ to make a flopcbet in itself +ev.
I rly think you have to have the will to turn your hand potentially later into a bluff.

[DRUK88]

I'd rather cbet because it's kind of for value, kind of for protection, but mainly as already said we have the option to turn our hand into a bluff on later streets. We do have a bdfd too and a gutshot, and he can have worse pair+sd so I don't think cbetting is bad. It makes the hand easier to play to. I feel if we're checking flop it's to c/f.

I would likely bet turn too most of the time because it protects our range somewhat and again there is some value. I'd guess on the river (provided we don't have the nuts - or can't rep it) I would check/decide based on sizing and his ability to vbet (I'd note that taking this line could cause V if he's good to just bomb it turning his entire range into a bluff, so I'd maybe wait to a c/c for larger bet sizes).

[Prologion]

Originally Posted by DRUK88

I'd rather cbet because it's kind of for value, kind of for protection, but mainly as already said we have the option to turn our hand into a bluff on later streets. We do have a bdfd too and a gutshot, and he can have worse pair+sd so I don't think cbetting is bad. It makes the hand easier to play to. I feel if we're checking flop it's to c/f.

I would likely bet turn too most of the time because it protects our range somewhat and again there is some value. I'd guess on the river (provided we don't have the nuts - or can't rep it) I would check/decide based on sizing and his ability to vbet (I'd note that taking this line could cause V if he's good to just bomb it turning his entire range into a bluff, so I'd maybe wait to a c/c for larger bet sizes).

Good post, ty very much^^

I agree btw. that the alternative to cbetting would here imo for sure C/F.
But ok, I have cbetted 20 into 24 and got called from a 19/14-player.
Hos fold to cbet stats on Flop/Turn/River have been: 45%/26%32%
Agg in % on River was 32% and his WTSD was 29% (Won$atSD: 56%).
Those stars are referring to a sample of 70k hands.

Now the turn was a 3c.
Would you then 2ndBarell here?

What would be your plan on various rivercard vs him?
Maybe we can Bluffjam on any heart?
What is our play on a K? (I guess C/F?)
On a jack I woudl say, we can easily valuejam.
On an Ace i am not sure (maybe bluffjam as well vs. QTs, KQ-hands?)
I guess on a ten we can also jam or considering a C/Call vs. a more aggr. REG.

But what is on total Blanks like 2-9-Non-heart?

Maybe you also have some ideas on all those questions

[DRUK88]

Originally Posted by Prologion

Good post, ty very much^^

I agree btw. that the alternative to cbetting would here imo for sure C/F.
But ok, I have cbetted 20 into 24 and got called from a 19/14-player.
Hos fold to cbet stats on Flop/Turn/River have been: 45%/26%32%
Agg in % on River was 32% and his WTSD was 29% (Won$atSD: 56%).
Those stars are referring to a sample of 70k hands.

Now the turn was a 3c.
Would you then 2ndBarell here?

Thanks for the compliment btw.

Based on the fact that our cbet was quite large here, I think his calling range is a little narrower. I mean, I'm not advocating something like 1/2pot, but $20 is different than $18 say here. However, that is nit-picking somewhat.

In response to your question, on 3c turn, based on the fact he's hardly ever folding turns I probably just vbet again because I don't think he's a "1 and done" (from a calling standpoint) type of player. There is probably similar arguments for a turn bet as there was a flop bet. It is real close tho, but again we can still turn our hand into a bluff which is a factor that maybe swings it in favour of bet.

As a side note, I think on a lot of these rivers when we turn our hand into a bluff we're gonna have to overbet or something because he's gonna have a decent piece a lot of the time. We kind of need to make our bet as polarized as possible because even if he rivers say 2pair, our range has a lot of showdown value and not much air, so to polarize our range will likely be perceived as weighted towards nutted hands (unless he think's we're capable of making the play we're considering here).

Originally Posted by Prologion

What would be your plan on various rivercard vs him?
Maybe we can Bluffjam on any heart?

Any hand that I think is more likely to be perceived to be better for our uncapped range (because we 3barreled) and perhaps worse for his range (hearts being one of them) I'd consider an overbet as mentioned previous. Not sure if it's good, but seems to have some logic behind it. What are your thoughts on that?

Originally Posted by Prologion

What is our play on a K? (I guess C/F?)

On a K, it depends on V. He seems straight up, so I would probs c/f. I'd like to think we could make like a thin/exploitable medium sized vbet, but his worse 2pair combos likely raise b4 the river (assuming he's somewhat straight up) and nothing worse will call I'd guess. Probs an ok line on a board that is a bit less connected, and a bit lower in ranking (i.e. non-broadway, which smacks both our range).

Originally Posted by Prologion

On a jack I woudl say, we can easily valuejam.

Me too, and I'd like to maybe overbet. We mighten't get much credit for just Jx because he may perceive us to not vbet this card. It also happens to balance our whole range and makes us super hard to call down against imo.

Originally Posted by Prologion

On an Ace i am not sure (maybe bluffjam as well vs. QTs, KQ-hands?)

Again I'd consider a bluff here too. His range is gonna be hard pressed to call, even his weaker 2pair hands might fold.

At the end of the day, this spot is tough because the range smacks both of ours. Thus, if we keep our range as uncapped and our line as uniformally distributed as possible (i.e. we don't take loads of diff lines with diff hand strengths) it's gonna be super tough for V to play against us. He's gonna be in a shitty spot even with like the top of his range, which has gotta be a good thing.

Originally Posted by Prologion

I guess on a ten we can also jam or considering a C/Call vs. a more aggr. REG.

I'd c/c vs a more aggro reg who will notice our check on a river like this as being capped and/or a sign of weakness, and will thus try to turn their whole range into a bluff.

In general though, I think this could be another spot for an overbet bluff. The T on the river is very likely to give him 2pair, perhaps moreso than a straight (thoughts on this)? Thus, for similar reasons about remaining uncapped and being difficult to play against etc, I kind of wanna just bomb it vs him on cards that improve his range but ours moreso (based on our line).

Originally Posted by Prologion

But what is on total Blanks like 2-9-Non-heart?

This is interesting because I think it is kind of dependent on V's ability to vbet thin. I'd consider a c/c vs a bomb from him on a blank. I'd feel anything strong enough to bomb river with would perhaps raise prior to the river on this board texture.

Vs lesser bet sizes it's just down to how thin he can vbet.

More than likely tho, I probs just c/f because of how showdown-bound his range looks, so if he does bet, its unlikely to be with air (kind of what us barreling a lot of runouts should get a lot of folds).

Originally Posted by Prologion

Maybe you also have some ideas on all those questions

Yeah I do, it appears I just wanna bomb anything and everything lol :S

[Prologion]

Hey,
thx for all your answers - some rly good point inside, imo

btw.,
if i would 2ndBarell the turn again pretty large, then I would not be able to overbet on the river, but to normal jam only.
But let`s say, we would have moreleft on the river and i could bet normal big or overjam for 1,5x.

The I guess, i like the idea of overjamming a lot on a jack for your reasoning, maybe on an ace as well, but not so on a heart -> the reason for that is that a heart improves my barellingrange much more than his callingrange (I have more FDs in my range) -> hence I think that here a normal big bet would be in general better for my range.

on total blanks, i like your thoughts very much.
Would you maybe also consider here to jam or Overbluffjam if it would be possible vs. TPs from his range?

[DRUK88]

Yeah you're right, your point about hearts being better for our range and thus do not need to bet so big. However, if river is a heart bt also a broadway, then maybe a bigbet or overbet r again better?

I dont fully understand the last bit sorry (regarding TPs from his range)? Please explain and il try to answer.

[Prologion]

Originally Posted by DRUK88

Yeah you're right, your point about hearts being better for our range and thus do not need to bet so big. However, if river is a heart bt also a broadway, then maybe a bigbet or overbet r again better?

Hm, then it might be again an option b/c such a card also would improve again parts of his range...

I dont fully understand the last bit sorry (regarding TPs from his range)? Please explain and il try to answer.

I just thought that when we overjam on a total Blank on the river, then Villain might fold TPs like, QTs, KQ, AQ.

Hope that makes things more clear...^^

[DRUK88]

Originally Posted by Prologion

Hope that makes things more clear...^^

Regarding TPs, its definitely possible that he folds these on a blank river. I mean, we're kind of uncapped in a spot were we cannot have total much air, which gives our bluffs more credibility (he could very well think we would check somewhere with a hand like 2nd pair rather than barrel it), so our hand looks very believable to be nutted.