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aejones · #21 (**permalink**) 03-11-2010, 04:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by coachgp

about 8 or 9 minutes in you talk a bit about how you dont wanna 3b/5b small pps (44 in this case) as thin value/ an adjustment to his range, but are eager to get in ATs and then later in the video ATo. Isn't a hand like ATs gonna have a lot more post flop playability than small pps, and thus a hand we'd rather keep in our flatting range? A lot of the time wen we flat 44, we just fold to a flop cbet since we have 3rd pair, have little equity, cant get to SD easily, and cant really rep anything with a ch/r, where as AT will make more top pair hands, and hands that can ch/c QJx turn checks thru, and we make a lil river bet (similar to the QJ on ATxxx towards the end of the vid), as well as being able to ch/c down on 993 type boards.

Given that they have about the same equity vs a wide 4b range, shouldnt 22-66 just get 3b/5b?
Also, the villain in this video didnt really flat 3bs as much, so we arent really worried about getting called oop with 44 and brling boards w/o much equity, yea?

It's possible that 44 does better against 99+ AQ+ all in preflop. despite the card removal effects of the AT. I don't have pokerstove on this computer so I'm not sure, my gut would say it's relatively close. The difference is that 44 is a nightmare to play postflop OOP in a 3-bet pot. You have very little card removal/blockers, you only hit a set one in 7 or 8 times, and you have a LOT of trouble just getting to showdown unless you're playing the worst player in the world (or the most straightforward). With AT, we make many more draws that have equity, flop a pair something like a third of the time (and it's often the highest pair on the board!) and frequently have something as simple as "overcards" which gives us a good opportunity to multi-barrel. Against someone who is calling wide, I'm much less worried about us being dominated if he calls our 3-bet because he will call with a lot of other aces and a lot of other tens that I dominate myself (and 4-bet a lot of hands that dominate me, but the match was playing aggressively enough that I thought he was 4-bet bluffing a lot).

That is a good Q and I hope I answered it well.

blitzology · #22 (**permalink**) 03-12-2010, 05:32 AM

In 3 bet pots I believe you c bet 100% of the time. Is this your standard, and can you explain why? Any merrit for a slowplay? Say you have the board locked up such has AA on a82 flop how would you proceed throughout the hand assuming your 100bb deep and want to get all the money in.

aejones · #23 (**permalink**) 03-12-2010, 12:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by blitzology

In 3 bet pots I believe you c bet 100% of the time. Is this your standard, and can you explain why? Any merrit for a slowplay? Say you have the board locked up such has AA on a82 flop how would you proceed throughout the hand assuming your 100bb deep and want to get all the money in.

Against almost all opponents I would still just c-bet. There are some c-bets and some opponents which I will choose to check-call on and some opponents where I would check- give up on some board textures (additionally, with the right stack sizes I would CR some flops as the preflop 3-bettor).

For the most part though, betting makes the rest of the hand easier to play, especially if you bet a small amount. Against someone competent, they will read your continuation bet on the A-hi flop as something that you do 100% of the time with both good and bad hands-- so they will be likely to bluff raise or float you and you will get a bet in with top set in a spot that you need to build a pot.

BoCash · #24 (**permalink**) 03-17-2010, 09:33 AM

Against this guy, in a vacuum, I have to think 4 bet shoving the 22 is better than folding it.

Are you folding it because you disagree, or maybe want to avoid giving him a lot of momentum?

Drasis · #25 (**permalink**) 03-19-2010, 06:43 PM

britapitcherbritapitcherbritapitcherbritapitcher...

Anyways, the pace of this match was alot faster than I'm used to. I liked your comment about how this probably favors you in terms of adjusting based on gathering info more quickly. It brings several questions to mind:

In high stakes games, is the play usually this fast? Are there certain opponents who you feel you really have to slow down to think against?

If the villain in this vid would have slowed down, would you have too? Is it common for mid-high stakes players to deny action to ppl who play too slow?

And how valuable is it to work on playing better, faster? Obv you'll get more hands in but there must be a tradeoff in diminished skill at that speed. Personally if I played you or another high stakes reg at this speed I'd def get crushed and turn my hand face up way too often. At slightly slower speeds I feel like I can protect my ranges, and perhaps more importantly at small stakes, exploit villains.

aejones · #26 (**permalink**) 03-19-2010, 06:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Drasis

britapitcherbritapitcherbritapitcherbritapitcher...

Anyways, the pace of this match was alot faster than I'm used to. I liked your comment about how this probably favors you in terms of adjusting based on gathering info more quickly. It brings several questions to mind:

In high stakes games, is the play usually this fast? Are there certain opponents who you feel you really have to slow down to think against?

In high stakes matches you get eaten alive if you have to slow down too much to think, or if your rushed decisions aren't good ones. I like to think I have been the benefactor of that more than the victim, but it has definitely worked both ways. Sometimes you're flustered and getting adjusted to as soon as you do something, where your opponent isn't nearly as easy to adjust against.

Quote:

If the villain in this vid would have slowed down, would you have too? Is it common for mid-high stakes players to deny action to ppl who play too slow?

With fast tables and whatnot there isn't that much opportunity to play slow, especially multi-tabling. I have quit people in the past if I was one tabling them and they were just taking too long (and I didn't have action on other tables).

Quote:

And how valuable is it to work on playing better, faster? Obv you'll get more hands in but there must be a tradeoff in diminished skill at that speed. Personally if I played you or another high stakes reg at this speed I'd def get crushed and turn my hand face up way too often. At slightly slower speeds I feel like I can protect my ranges, and perhaps more importantly at small stakes, exploit villains.

In just about anything, you will get quicker at it the more you do it (although I can think of at least one thing this definitely isn't true for). Your mind just adjusts faster and decisions become more second nature. There is a book called Blink which I read the first half of a year or more ago. It deals with how often you make your best decision with your first instinct in the blink of an eye because your mind processes all this information that you don't realize it is processing (the book is a psychology book but is popular among poker players for the obvious correlation).