grogheadflow - $200 NL Zoom

[Gerv]

{ JJ+, A2s+, KTs+, QTs+, JTs, 98s, 87s, 76s, 65s, 54s, A2o+, KTo+, QTo+, JTo }

the range ^^ you assigned for the utg to be 4b bluffing with is obviously incorrect, since there's no way 22% range is going to contain A2o-A8o, which are largely the proportion of that range which you are ahead of preflop. Also, when you say that "the standard in this spot is to 4bet all blockers so he could have a ton of A7o etc thrown in as well." which essentially means it's unlikely that he'll have the suited connectors in there either, which are the second portion of his range that you're ahead of.


I'm surprised if you actually can show a profit with 88 in that spot by flatting the 4bet but maybe you're a sicker soulreader than i give you credit for.


what comes to the JTo, don't know. Most ppl can't show a profit by flatting 3bets with a normal, strong, range so i guess the above paragraph is suitable here as well.


Anyway, it's really good to see this kind of style as well, since i doubt too many ppl play this kind of style. So thanks, and gl.

[grogheadflow]

Originally Posted by Gerv

the range ^^ you assigned for the utg to be 4b bluffing with is obviously incorrect, since there's no way 22% range is going to contain A2o-A8o, which are largely the proportion of that range which you are ahead of preflop. Also, when you say that "the standard in this spot is to 4bet all blockers so he could have a ton of A7o etc thrown in as well." which essentially means it's unlikely that he'll have the suited connectors in there either, which are the second portion of his range that you're ahead of.

Fair enough, but I mean I showed we can make a profit VS the uber strong range so the point stands.

Originally Posted by Gerv

I'm surprised if you actually can show a profit with 88 in that spot by flatting the 4bet but maybe you're a sicker soulreader than i give you credit for.

Ha not sure if serious, but after 500k hands of zoom I'll publish some DB results filtered for whatever you want, promise.

Originally Posted by Gerv

what comes to the JTo, don't know. Most ppl can't show a profit by flatting 3bets with a normal, strong, range so i guess the above paragraph is suitable here as well.

I find this very interesting, and might come from a mistake of their analysis. I went through a stage of folding a ton to 3bets, as my DB showed me losing or breaking even in absolute terms. When you filter for 'flatted 3bet' though, you obviously have to take into account that had you folded, you would've lost your initial raise. So say I flat 500 3bets, having raised $6 each time. I've lost $2000 says HEM. In actual fact we've won $1000 VS folding. When I corrected my analysis, I actually found I was making money flatting a super wide range IP. So either I play better, or people don't realise what I've just said.

[housenuts]

Around 9:00 in table 1. Btn opens to $4, and you 3b in sb to $17. Is 4.25x your standard 3b there?

I almost always make it 3-3.5x.

Please explain why so big.

[grogheadflow]

I feel like 4x or less doesn't have enough FE and I want folds a lot

[grogheadflow]

By the way people, any ideas or suggestions for part 2? I'm thinking maybe a session where I run especially bad or something.

[891327]

Originally Posted by Gerv

the range ^^ you assigned for the utg to be 4b bluffing with is obviously incorrect,

Espeacially when he's 4betting 25% of hands after only opening 22% of them But I get the point he's making. Thanks for explaining the 88 in more detail.

Is 3betting smaller with the intention of flatting 4bets in position something that you wanna be able to do with a lot of you're range against someone who's wide pre and 4betting a ton? (As it would seem that with 88 specifically it could be better to 3b larger and 5b if, when you 3b bigger, he's gonna 4b a less polarised range including 4b/folding stuff he may flat the smaller 3b with?) If so, how would you treat hands like KQs, AJo, KQo, JTs where a more "standard" line would be to 3b/fold or flat depending on which of these hands you're talking about. And do you include a lot of slow plays when flatting 4bets in this spot?

[grogheadflow]

Originally Posted by 891327

Is 3betting smaller with the intention of flatting 4bets in position something that you wanna be able to do with a lot of you're range against someone who's wide pre and 4betting a ton? (As it would seem that with 88 specifically it could be better to 3b larger and 5b if, when you 3b bigger, he's gonna 4b a less polarised range including 4b/folding stuff he may flat the smaller 3b with?) If so, how would you treat hands like KQs, AJo, KQo, JTs where a more "standard" line would be to 3b/fold or flat depending on which of these hands you're talking about. And do you include a lot of slow plays when flatting 4bets in this spot?

Yeah I guess it's a mechanism by which I can be more creative, put people in tougher spots, theoretically creates more an edge (because what edge really is there in the 3bet 4bet 5bet game these days) and lower variance. People often don't 4bet hands that they intend to see a flop with. A6 etc abounds, whereas my 3betting range is tailored to seeing flops. Similarly if we 4bet small, and people flat, they often haven't 3bet a range where they're super happy to be playing a 4bet pot.

In terms of 88 3betting larger to 5bet this might be true but of course I can't switch up the sizing based on my hand.

All those hands you mention I 3bet and flat 4bets with...... of course I still cold call them too depending on the situation. What I would say about cold calling a lot though is that modern blind squeezing is an absolute killer........

If I flat a 4bet of course I have AK AA KK QQ in the range. I guess I don't like going all in pre too much these days.

[Timor]

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 33.281% 33.09% 00.19% 135990732 778128.00 { 88 }
Hand 1: 66.719% 66.53% 00.19% 273405972 778128.00 { JJ+, AKs, AKo }

This is VS a value 4bet range. We have equity and odds to flat even VS a strong range

....

This is all very true, but aren't you ignoring the fact that:

1) you have a decent amount of reverse implied odds on the boards that are presumably safe for your hand, like the TTx: you say you want to induce from AK but isn't the reality that if you get it in you're absolutely crushed against his range?
2) you say that you will have to give up on broadway boards, but the chance of not having one single broadway card on the flop is ~20%, ~43% if you don't count T's. That's still a lot, and that's not even regarding the scenario where you call flop on a safe board and see a broadway card on the turn anyway.

I guess what I'm trying to say is: pure odds to call isn't going to do you much good if there are a ton of scenario's where you will either fold the best hand, get it in with a worse hand or get outdrawn. Of course you're in position and you're a better player, but when SPR is somewhat low I always learned that these things are less important.

Btw, minor remark: you are right that people are, as a standard, polarized here when they 4bet, but even though you seem to be playing 19/16 or so, your 3bet still seems high based on this vid. You probably played a somewhat decent amount with this guy so he might've picked up on that so he might start to 4-bet JJ+,AK for value as a standard.


Overall really good vid, prolly the first vid in a while I learned a bunch of things from.