Dan replays all the medium and big sized pots played in a single session of Stars.Fr. Spending a maximum of 2 minutes per hand, Dan succinctly outlines his thought process on each one, incorporating bet sizing, relative hand strength, and some spew.
I'd like to watch more of these, but without the "show all known cards" checkmarked. Having it checkmarked clouds the video with results orientedness and if you dont see any cards then you know you won or lost before showdown.
5.20 ~ When u donk this board, what is you general plan going to be? Like what thoughts are going through your mind when u donk and thinking about later streets? I assume if u donk, u are going 3 streets on a ton of runouts? Also, how important is it that the hand u have, have pretty terrible EQ in terms of that u don't have almost any bd draws and only 1 overcard?
11.15 ~ What was the reason that u elected to go for a c/r instead of betting turn+river (if that is what u would do if u bet turn I guess?) I just think he can check behind with alot of hands that has pair+straightdraw, witch is gonna call turn but pretty often fold river. What do u think?
26.20 ~ What do u think about betting turn for value again, compared to c/c as u did? I usually bet turn in spots like this thinking that he is a fish, he can call gutshots, 2nd pairs, flushdraws etc. If we c/c, I guess we are planning on c/c turn+river if the board doesn't run out bad?
29.30 ~ Can u elaborate a bit more why u would c/c that flop? Does it change if u play vs a reg? To me it just seems like we are getting ourself into a bunch of tuff spots, when we don't even have a heart in our hand. So personally I would pretty much always bet on the flop here. What do u think about it?
31.20 ~ If we elect to check back flop as u did, don't we need to know pretty well how he is gonna react to it? Like if he is gonna go bet/bet as a bluff and we are putting ourself in a spot we could have prevented by just cbeting? Imo we can end up making pretty big mistake when we take this line if we don't know well how to react. Do you agree?
Thought it was an interesting format. Would def like to see a part 2.
Like the concept A LOT. Way more vids should be like this.
11:15, why c/r so big? Don't u think u accomplish same thing with 3x? Was ur plan to bet river as well if he called your c/r? Also wonder indeed why u suspected him to bet a weak made hand like Joey asked as well. He is more likely to chk behind imo.
rated 10x, but i would make one critique of your play style. you utilize a lot of really small bet sizing, which is good/optimal vs regs in a lot of situations, especially when you're playing extremely lag as you do, but there are a few spots i think you are getting to cute with your sizing v fish.
in the j2s hand, i actually think your sizing is fine b/c it induces spazzes, and you're sort of drawing to a brick river w/ that hand.
however, in the kk hand vs the laggy fish, you make it 3x, he makes it 13x, and you make it 23x, and i really hate that play. recreational players are just not going to fold if you make it 28x there. they don't 3bet polarized and will always flat or shove over you. when you make it 23x, i think you risk him flatting you (even with his particular hand AK or something like 88-99), and you possibly lose out on a lot of value postflop by not getting him committed earlier with your nutted hand.
Best video on here for a while (except AE Jone's obv). Hiding the hole cards isn't a big deal, he still talked about the different parts of villains range were.
Really liked the vid! Cool idea and nice to see somethign different.
What size bet would you go on the last hand where you have AQ? the pot is 37.. my thoughts are if he's calling with a J, he'll call a pretty big bet, and if he has a weak A he's always calling, and he doesn't seem the type to spaz jam if you bet small.. so something like 25?
5.20 ~ When u donk this board, what is you general plan going to be? Like what thoughts are going through your mind when u donk and thinking about later streets? I assume if u donk, u are going 3 streets on a ton of runouts? Also, how important is it that the hand u have, have pretty terrible EQ in terms of that u don't have almost any bd draws and only 1 overcard?
Ok, what is going through my mind? Good question! The most important thing to realise in this hand is villain's range stealing from the BTN = very weak. He knows this of course but there's not tons he can do about it. Our range flatting out of the BB = much stronger. Especially when he makes it 2.5x as opposed to 2x. When I say strong, I obviously don't mean premium starting hands, but instead a range of suited and connecting hands that can rep pretty much anything on any flop that comes. Flop 864ss smashes our perceived range, and so even with a particularly weak draw (one overcard, dodgy backdoor straight) we can just lead and take it down a ton. (In hindsight, I would prefer at least a backdoor flush possibility to be honest). We are of course balanced leading here with all nutted hands as we wouldn't ever want this board checked through. When villain flats, then his range is somewhat capped and we can barrel off sometimes, the frequencies of which are dependent on us turning some equity.
11.15 ~ What was the reason that u elected to go for a c/r instead of betting turn+river (if that is what u would do if u bet turn I guess?) I just think he can check behind with alot of hands that has pair+straightdraw, witch is gonna call turn but pretty often fold river. What do u think?
Looking back I just prefer betting 3 times yes. It's just one of those spots where on KJ9r you don't love going 3 streets, but so long as your frequencies are controlled by turning some flushdraw, or in this case having the nut hi hand + GS then it's fine.
26.20 ~ What do u think about betting turn for value again, compared to c/c as u did? I usually bet turn in spots like this thinking that he is a fish, he can call gutshots, 2nd pairs, flushdraws etc. If we c/c, I guess we are planning on c/c turn+river if the board doesn't run out bad?
Ya, the important things to weigh up here are usually; $ won through worse hands when we bet for value, $ won through potential bluffs when we check, subtract $ lost when we value town ourselves VS stronger hands that woud've checked. In general, passive fish I'll bet (no money won from bluffs), aggro fish I'll check (lots of money won from bluffs). This guy was the latter, his super wide weak PF range makes his range more bluffy too.
29.30 ~ Can u elaborate a bit more why u would c/c that flop? Does it change if u play vs a reg? To me it just seems like we are getting ourself into a bunch of tuff spots, when we don't even have a heart in our hand. So personally I would pretty much always bet on the flop here. What do u think about it?
I probably wouldn't do it VS a reg, as it's kinda difficult to balance with anything that can always call 3 streets. It's just a pure vacuum play VS a fish, where our gameplan should be to revert to ABC poker along the lines of 'what worse can call, what better can fold'. Here we win some bluff money and have decent equity when behind.
31.20 ~ If we elect to check back flop as u did, don't we need to know pretty well how he is gonna react to it? Like if he is gonna go bet/bet as a bluff and we are putting ourself in a spot we could have prevented by just cbeting? Imo we can end up making pretty big mistake when we take this line if we don't know well how to react. Do you agree?
Well we can kinda guess how he'll react based on his fishiness, (more likely to make bad bluffs, probably not betting strong for value depolarised), and with his range being this weak even if he literally never bluffs we're not losing a lot in the grand scheme of things 'cos he'll just have so few strong hands.
Thought it was an interesting format. Would def like to see a part 2.
Thanks, will do.
Like the concept A LOT. Way more vids should be like this.
11:15, why c/r so big? Don't u think u accomplish same thing with 3x? Was ur plan to bet river as well if he called your c/r? Also wonder indeed why u suspected him to bet a weak made hand like Joey asked as well. He is more likely to chk behind imo.
I don't think he'd bet a weak made hand all the time or anything, just that there are plenty in his range with this betsize as a protection bet or whatever. I could've made the CR smaller certainly, unused to the stakes etc I suppose, and yeah with all the draws out I'd be betting all non pairing, non Q/A rivers.
rated 10x, but i would make one critique of your play style. you utilize a lot of really small bet sizing, which is good/optimal vs regs in a lot of situations, especially when you're playing extremely lag as you do, but there are a few spots i think you are getting to cute with your sizing v fish.
in the j2s hand, i actually think your sizing is fine b/c it induces spazzes, and you're sort of drawing to a brick river w/ that hand.
however, in the kk hand vs the laggy fish, you make it 3x, he makes it 13x, and you make it 23x, and i really hate that play. recreational players are just not going to fold if you make it 28x there. they don't 3bet polarized and will always flat or shove over you. when you make it 23x, i think you risk him flatting you (even with his particular hand AK or something like 88-99), and you possibly lose out on a lot of value postflop by not getting him committed earlier with your nutted hand.
Thanks, appreciate the comments. The whole small betsizing thing I've always done, but I've always said that it shouldn't be done in a vacuum without tailoring other parts of your game to match. Like 85% pot cbettors on t84r will have a very good feel for what hands call, how different hands react etc. My experience with postflop ranges has always been to the smaller bets, and I'm very happy with how this widens and caps our opponent's range in certain spots. I probably do overdo it though in certain vacuum spots VS fish.
Best video on here for a while (except AE Jone's obv). Hiding the hole cards isn't a big deal, he still talked about the different parts of villains range were.
Ha, coming from the original 'Mr Tough Crowd' that actually means a lot, thanks.
Really liked the vid! Cool idea and nice to see somethign different.
What size bet would you go on the last hand where you have AQ? the pot is 37.. my thoughts are if he's calling with a J, he'll call a pretty big bet, and if he has a weak A he's always calling, and he doesn't seem the type to spaz jam if you bet small.. so something like 25?
It's kinda interesting, would be more interesting VS a reg. VS a reg, his range looks weak, ours looks strong, and therefore we should bet smaller with bluffs and value. So I really like something like $19 VS a reg with bluffs and value. VS a fish, meh $30 like you say he's not folding Jx, Ax, QQ, or KK, but might talk himself out of a call to something really big. Slight consideration is losing less to AK as well, so maybe I'd go $25 actually.
Ok, what is going through my mind? Good question! The most important thing to realise in this hand is villain's range stealing from the BTN = very weak. He knows this of course but there's not tons he can do about it. Our range flatting out of the BB = much stronger. Especially when he makes it 2.5x as opposed to 2x. When I say strong, I obviously don't mean premium starting hands, but instead a range of suited and connecting hands that can rep pretty much anything on any flop that comes. Flop 864ss smashes our perceived range, and so even with a particularly weak draw (one overcard, dodgy backdoor straight) we can just lead and take it down a ton. (In hindsight, I would prefer at least a backdoor flush possibility to be honest). We are of course balanced leading here with all nutted hands as we wouldn't ever want this board checked through. When villain flats, then his range is somewhat capped and we can barrel off sometimes, the frequencies of which are dependent on us turning some equity.
Do u mean that u will only barrel if u pick up EQ? If thats the case, it seems like a pretty big mistake to me. First the hand we have will almost never turn EQ, so its going to be a 1 and done a ton of the time so in that case we should just c/f. But I think that looking at villain callingrange on the flop and what he is going with it on later streets is more important then if we actually are turning EQ or not on later streets. I might have missunderstod u, just some thoughts I had. What do u think?
Ya this is similar to your other post in a thread which I've been meaning to answer.
Do u mean that u will only barrel if u pick up EQ?
Yes in general, but against foldy types it can also be turn cards that just miss opponent's range like K,Q, J etc with the intention of betting turn and big on the river.
First the hand we have will almost never turn EQ, so its going to be a 1 and done a ton of the time so in that case we should just c/f.
That's only true if we don't expect our flop lead to work enough of the time in a vacuum. It's close as to whether that's true or not in this spot, but I've already said I would prefer a stronger draw to lead with, some backdoor flush should probably be a minimum. My draw in the actual hand is probably a little outside the bounds of what we should be leading and therefore it's a CF.
But I think that looking at villain callingrange on the flop and what he is going with it on later streets is more important then if we actually are turning EQ or not on later streets
Ok this is important, and was a Eureka moment for me at some point. Our frequencies for these type of moves must be kept in check by our equity in the hand. Why? Well, say we flop total air, 22 or something. We lead 3 times on 864cc Ao Qo and get called by 98 over 3 streets. We feel owned, and have been owned, in a way in which we wouldn't be owned had we led T9cc (strong draw) 3 streets as a bluff and got called down. Why is this?
Well, because if we're leading 3 streets with a hand like 22, then our leading range is 22 and everything stronger than 22. Our range in that exact spot was some sets, unlikely 2-pairs, unlikely flopped sets, and a TON of air........ and so our frequencies for bluffing there are wildly unbalanced. When we analyse his call down VS that range, then we suck and he's correct to call down.
However if we know our leading range in that spot to comprise say 1/3 bluffs, 2/3 value (as decided by equity for obvious reasons), then his calldown sucks. We can analyse the hand and feel happy, safe in the knowledge that our frequencies are balanced enough that he's kinda fucked whatever he does.
In summary, get out the habit of analysing hands in a vacuum. Analyse range VS range is all that matters.
This is definitely interesting. There are so many things floating around in my head that I barely know where to start. I'll try and sum it up shortly.
First, I have heard so much about about that balancing shouldn't even be in my vocabulary at 50nl. Cuz nobody is really gonna do much about it that I'm unbalanced in certain spots. And its probably true a fair bit at 100nl aswell? So how much weight should I really put into having balanced freq at these limits? I think that if nobody is exploiting me for being unbalanced, then I can just continue that way untill I see that they adjust?
For example in this hand when u donk. Lets say that the donk itself is +ev because he is just gonna have so much garbage in his range. The problem I have is that even though we don't pick up EQ on the turn often, he is just gonna have so many hands that just ain't gonna call down. Being 1 and done alot on 864ss just don't seem like a good idea even if the flopdonk is profitable. But ye I understand that we might be unbalanced. Its just weird I don't really get it :p It just seems like overall, we are gonna be 1 and done alot. If we donk gutshot+bdfd, the vast majority of the time we are just gonna bet flop and c/f turn if we are only barreling on cards that improve our EQ, even though the range of hands villain is calling with is weak.
Dunno if this makes any sence. But being 1 and done is the biggest issue I have with this. Appreciate the discussion.
Hello, had a bit of a hiatus from poker, I'm back to answer all my threads now!
This is definitely interesting. There are so many things floating around in my head that I barely know where to start. I'll try and sum it up shortly.
First, I have heard so much about about that balancing shouldn't even be in my vocabulary at 50nl. Cuz nobody is really gonna do much about it that I'm unbalanced in certain spots. And its probably true a fair bit at 100nl aswell? So how much weight should I really put into having balanced freq at these limits? I think that if nobody is exploiting me for being unbalanced, then I can just continue that way untill I see that they adjust?
Well, the way to think about is not 'I need to be balanced so that people don't notice I'm unbalanced and thus use their sick skills to exploit me'. The point is that most spots are shades of grey as to how often a player will fold x, call y, and so given we don't have definitive answers we know that by balancing our play based upon our holdings means we are not getting outplayed or exploited ourselves. Our opponent is simultaneously trying to exploit us, along the lines of 'he's a monkey, call 3 streets with TT on Qxx', or 'he's a nit who never bluff raises, bet fold TPTK on the flop EZ game'. By ensuring we are balanced with our frequencies to the point where none of these assumptions holds true, the collective exploiting efforts of our opponents are doomed to fail.
I'm finding it hard to explain what I mean, it makes perfect sense in my own head but without the words to describe it. Any leggo coach with a better way to explain this please feel free to chip in.
For example in this hand when u donk. Lets say that the donk itself is +ev because he is just gonna have so much garbage in his range. The problem I have is that even though we don't pick up EQ on the turn often, he is just gonna have so many hands that just ain't gonna call down. Being 1 and done alot on 864ss just don't seem like a good idea even if the flopdonk is profitable. But ye I understand that we might be unbalanced. Its just weird I don't really get it :p It just seems like overall, we are gonna be 1 and done alot. If we donk gutshot+bdfd, the vast majority of the time we are just gonna bet flop and c/f turn if we are only barreling on cards that improve our EQ, even though the range of hands villain is calling with is weak.
Dunno if this makes any sence. But being 1 and done is the biggest issue I have with this. Appreciate the discussion.
Yeah, so if we think he isn't calling 2 streets or 3 with many holdings, then we can increase our donk 3 streets range. The point is, don't do it with like 100% of your bluff range, choose the top 50% of hands that are behind that have equity for example. The truth is we just don't know if he's a calling station (decrease bluffing range, increase value range), or a huge nit (visa versa) so by being somewhat balanced with our frequencies we know we're doing ok whatever the weather.
So as for not donking just one n done on this board, we can elect to donk 0,1,2 or 3 streets as bluffs based on our holdings. If donking 1 street in a vacuum is profitable, let's do it with a hand with very little equity and then give up. Let's donk 2 streets with at least a turned GS, and 3 streets with a turned OESD for example. Balancing our frequencies in this way isn't about doing it for the sake of doing it, it's about ensuring that in those grey area spots we are not making wild mistakes while our opponent probably still is.
lol i didn't think anyone took any notice of my comments.
i'm not hard to please, just make an informative video and i'm happy. btw, are you playing from the uk on this stars fr site?
Your comments usually stand out like a sore thumb haha. Yes I'm playing from the UK. Softer players, higher rake, less VIP benefits, it all kinda equals out and I'm playing across both sites atm.
I'm gonna go ahead and say 55 is a pretty easy bet/fold here vs. a 19vpip. I doubt he's ever x/r'ing anything as a bluff here unless he's a sicko thinks you can fold Kx here (which I don't think many players are bold enough to try and push you off trips at these stakes without some insane read on your).
Also, you're flop calling range on that board (multiway) is almost always Kx or better after you call flop and bet turn. I doubt he perceives you having anything that floated in this situation that is now trying to barrel him off some random 2nd pair hand.
