Table 4 at 20.20 ~ You open 77 UTG and get 3bet from the BTN who is a 50bbs stacker and you elect to flat. the flop comes 862r and you c/r. Don't u think a hand like 77 is gonna be to hard to play OOP in these positions. You got one of the better boards u could ask for imo and you still don't feel confortable to c/c. So feels like this should either be a GII preflop or a fold. What do u think?
Also u talked about the raise sizing. Raising from 30 to 86 that u advocated seems like a huge raise in a 3betpot vs a shortstacker? Were u raise/calling or raise/folding here?
Table 4 at 20.20 ~ You open 77 UTG and get 3bet from the BTN who is a 50bbs stacker and you elect to flat. the flop comes 862r and you c/r. Don't u think a hand like 77 is gonna be to hard to play OOP in these positions. You got one of the better boards u could ask for imo and you still don't feel confortable to c/c. So feels like this should either be a GII preflop or a fold. What do u think?
Also u talked about the raise sizing. Raising from 30 to 86 that u advocated seems like a huge raise in a 3betpot vs a shortstacker? Were u raise/calling or raise/folding here?
He has closer to 70bbs than 50bbs which is a considerable difference. I think against some players you can 4bet get in smaller pocket pairs as their ranges are pretty polarized but it depends on how they play their 4bets obv. A lot of players 5bets in that spot are going to be too strong like AK,JJ+, with too little air jam range to just get all the money in profitably especially since almost all his jam range is going to be two overs so if u are going to 4bet, because of stacks you are probably forced to go with it but if he was a bit deeper I think it'd be -EV to be 4betting and getting it in pf.
Yeah I think high 70s to high 80s would've been fine. He's not a short stacker but a mid stack in the hand and has enuf chips behind. It would be a raise fold in this spot since I dont expect him to really be betcalling with worse.
I think folding is okay if you dont have too good a feel for how your opponent is playing, but I think my 3bet defend range from UTG is going to get some respect and allow me to make moves postflop or showdown a bit easier than from other positions where my perceived raise/call range is going to be looser. Medium pocket pairs will generally play pretty well against someone 3betting that much. I could checkcall the 77 and feel not too bad about it but I'd rather do it with something like JJ/TT/99 that is a bit higher and cr JJ/QQ+,some bluffs. If a A/K comes off it's a really awkward spot and I dont want him to be able to see turn / river with two overs which most of his range contains.
Do you think that it is a good play to use a c/c flop, lead turn line against people that like to barrel 2 or 3 streets on these very dry, hard to hit boards, to prevent them from bluffing you with a hand similar to yours or weaker, because their range is as FOS as yours (assuming they have a relatively wide range pre), but you take back the initiative from them without c/raising which looks weird.
Or would the logic be simply to c/c and stab river when you don't expect them to barrel a lot, and just fold flop or even fold pre when you know they are more of a barreling type ?
- Table 4 at 21:00 :
Is 77 a standard defend for you UTG oop vs an aggressive 3 better ? I mean 12% on the BTN is not that high, and it's probably less than that vs UTG. If you add the fact that you said he likes to barrel quite a bit, i don't understand how this can be a profitable call.
I don't understand your c/r on that flop either, is that designed to make him fold his 6 outers ? Are you counting on the fact that he should fold all of his non TP-overpair hands and that his range is wide enough that this is profitable with ATC in a vaccum ?
Do you think that it is a good play to use a c/c flop, lead turn line against people that like to barrel 2 or 3 streets on these very dry, hard to hit boards, to prevent them from bluffing you with a hand similar to yours or weaker, because their range is as FOS as yours (assuming they have a relatively wide range pre), but you take back the initiative from them without c/raising which looks weird.
Or would the logic be simply to c/c and stab river when you don't expect them to barrel a lot, and just fold flop or even fold pre when you know they are more of a barreling type ?
- Table 4 at 21:00 :
Is 77 a standard defend for you UTG oop vs an aggressive 3 better ? I mean 12% on the BTN is not that high, and it's probably less than that vs UTG. If you add the fact that you said he likes to barrel quite a bit, i don't understand how this can be a profitable call.
I don't understand your c/r on that flop either, is that designed to make him fold his 6 outers ? Are you counting on the fact that he should fold all of his non TP-overpair hands and that his range is wide enough that this is profitable with ATC in a vaccum ?
c/c and donk turn is a line that is somewhat still "new" and isn't done a whole lot. I've thought about it a bit and think it's a reasonable alternative vs checkraising. I like doing it on textures where it's conceivable the turn helps your range more than theirs and that also helps you build bigger pots when you do spike 2 pair or better on turns where villains may pot control.
Vs aggro players you always want to have a bit of a tighter range understandably to combat their aggression unless you have a really good read on their tendencies and feel comfortable being able to hero call with bottom pair or other weak holdings. Generally Id let the aggro players do the betting and will raise when I think they would not be betting the next street. Ex. villain cbets 90% flop and 80% of turns, you could just go for turn checkraises since his range is going to be quite weak a lot of the time if his range was wide pf, just keep in mind board texture and if villain would call down lighter than usual in which case you can just start off doing your checkraises w/ more value hands.
With the 77 hand, I do feel like my hand is best a lot on the flop but very vulnerable and I can be left in tough spots on turns when overcards drop so I should make less mistakes with my flop checkraise assuming that he folds all his hands that aren't paired up which should be quite a lot if he's 3betting 12% pf and most likely isnt 3betting TT and smaller PPs. Like I said in the video though, i wish i cr'd a bit bigger because it discourages him from doing weird floats with gutters and stuff. Basically if he is folding when he misses, I prevent myself from A) being bluffed off the hand and B) prevent him from having his almost for sure 24% or so equity. I think I explained a bit too in the last post as well
I get your point, however I would like you to say what exactly is this raise considered as ? Sorry if i'm being redundant btw.
Do you think you could call this raise a protection type of raise / raise for information ? I know this isn't usually said like that in videos, but in terms of value/bluff you can't really classify it, since it just doesn't have that purpose if I understand right because no worst hand calls and no better hand folds.
So it's strictly designed to make the hand easier to play because you got in that uncomfortable spot in the first place, is that correct ?
One question regarding the KQo hand at the end of the vid, what are your thoughts on making a smaller 4bet with the intention to 4bet/fold? He has about 200$ starting the hand and it went 8.8$ > 24$. What do you think about making it like 48-52$ and folding to a jam?
I get your point, however I would like you to say what exactly is this raise considered as ? Sorry if i'm being redundant btw.
Do you think you could call this raise a protection type of raise / raise for information ? I know this isn't usually said like that in videos, but in terms of value/bluff you can't really classify it, since it just doesn't have that purpose if I understand right because no worst hand calls and no better hand folds.
So it's strictly designed to make the hand easier to play because you got in that uncomfortable spot in the first place, is that correct ?
If I were to put a name on it I would call it raising to protect or the often frowned upon "information" raise but these raises are great in certain spots and horrible in others. I think it's kind of easiest to explain like this, if I raise there (to a bigger size that I recommended), I would need him to fold ~45ish % of the time or something so it will almost surely be a +EV line to take if he's folding most of his missed hands which he often will miss that board with a 12%ish 3betting range which could be more or less but around there. I believe TT-AA is only about 3 % of hands and wouldnt expect him to 3bet worse PP's as a standard since they usually play better flatted and IP. so about 75% of the time he's going to have suited stuff, AK,AQ, Axs, KQ maybe etc.
Theoretically flatting is better since we are about ahead often, but to turn the profit and keep things +EV, we need to know his bluffing frequencies fairly well or could make a sizeable mistake (not too sure about his double barrel freq in 3bet pot from these pos/stack sizes)
Generally if I c/c the flop, I'm almost always checking turn so he's going to get to see turn / river with his two overs always as well. So if an A/K comes off we could be making a huge mistake by folding. If he has J9s for example now he'll have about 24% equity to pair up ahead of me as well as another 24% of so to get the A/K to bluff at on eitherturn/river, or it could be a scenario where he just decided his range looks pretty strong and will bet/bet/bet with his J9 on bricks which I'll have to kind of guess whether to call/fold and may make more money or may lose more money compared to the plan of raising to see where I was at in the flop.
So the way I kind of look at it to simplify is like if I raise this flop I'd probably make $5 and if I c/c and guess on future streets I could make $10 x% of the time or I could lose $5 y% of the time (lets just use random numbers since I'm not sure how you would do the calcs with so many unknown variables anyway) and really I'm not sure how often c/c will work out and how x% and y% will look since it depends on his bluffing frequencies, bet sizing, his true 3bet and barreling ranges, and obv how the board runs out it will affect things greatly... but I felt like the raise would give that profit almost regardless of those variables I'm not so sure about
One question regarding the KQo hand at the end of the vid, what are your thoughts on making a smaller 4bet with the intention to 4bet/fold? He has about 200$ starting the hand and it went 8.8$ > 24$. What do you think about making it like 48-52$ and folding to a jam?
I believe the pot odds i'd be getting with that sizing would be about $260 in the middle from his jam and dead money, and I need to put in $150 so close to 2:1. I assume him 3bet get in range there would be like 99-AA,AK,AQ if he NEVER rejams bluff or does it with AJs or anything, we end up having 30% equity so we're getting about the right price to not fold and to throw chips in his face.
At 39:00 w/AJs on the btn. How about shoving the turn, once we gain our equity w/the flush draw. Do you think you can make him fold AA or KK? If not, you definitely can make him fold lower pocket pairs and AK, AQ. The times we are called, you still have decent equity w/ the ace outs and the diamonds. Though his double barreling frequency is low, the board texture is such that if he wants the pot he has to bet turn since you float that flop with a lot of hands and can just barrel him out of the pot giving the aggressive dynamics you had. What do you think?
I didnt expect him to be barreling the river much w/ bluffs and felt his range was kind of strong so I decided to call. If I felt he might bluff me off on the river w/ worse hands then I think jamming turn is better. I think if he has 99-AA pocket pairs, he will realize they are all same value and my range is Qx and bluffs so I dont know if he folds 99 to a jam on the turn
