Denny kicks off this 2 part series by playing 4 tables of $1,000 NL short handed on Stars. Denny talks about leading out in multi-way pots, turning hands into bluffs and exploiting weaker players.
you could even think about raising flop here. given the dynamic you had, he is going nowhere with Jx+ (well, anyhow no one ever is BBvsBTN). you treat this hand like its a marginal hand, but given his preflop aggression imo we have the stone cold nuts here.
i like the turn bet and check/river line. imo turn bet is mandatory, i really don't like checking back without a heart here and given how coordinated to board is. we are still way ahead of his range and given that we 4bet his 3bet before and now called his 3bet, he will give us a wide calling range that deep and is going nowhere with J+ on Turn.
Interesting video. I have alot of thoughts on it...!
At 8mins in the 9T hand on KcK9Qc8c. Do you have a river betting range or do you think you should be checking your entire range to him in order to balance your c/r bluffs?
At around the 19min mark you discuss your raise on the flop with 56 on J2h3h52. You check back the turn when you turn a pair and say you have bluffed the river if the flush hit. Would you ever really not bet a flush draw on the turn after raising the flop? I expect decent players to keep betting flush draws. As your probably viewed as a decent player and aggressive I can't see why a regular would give you any credit for having a flush on a flush river. I think he would snap you off with any jack.
At 41mins, you 3bet 8s9s bvb and pot control the flop on 794r because your 150bb deep. You say you'd hate to be c/r this deep (perhaps by a hand like JJ) hence you check behind the flop. I'm not sure your logic is correct? Because your deep and in position imo the villian is alot less likely to c/r you. He's forced to play more honestly because he's oop with alot more to lose. If I'm villian and c/r JJ on this flop and got called or 3bet, arent you almost over-repping your hand?
43 mins you 3bet Kc5c from the sb v button. Given he is likely a fish and you know nothing of his tendancies isnt Kc5c bit of a bad choice of hand to 3bet? When you bet the turn after checking the flop to him your turn bet size struck me as odd on K67r5. You bet 135 into 170. I think if your betting 135 into 170 you might as well bet the full pot. I think your losing value with that bet size. (Especially given he pot controlled the flop. He's going to have a tonne of weaker 2pr hands and pair plus straight draws)
The AK hand at the end. c/c the flop is way better than c/r imo for the reasons you said plus how often is he cbetting a QJx flop light when you call a 3bet from utg? That flop smacks your range. I doubt you have much fold equity on your c/r and you waste your equity when he shoves.
you could even think about raising flop here. given the dynamic you had, he is going nowhere with Jx+ (well, anyhow no one ever is BBvsBTN). you treat this hand like its a marginal hand, but given his preflop aggression imo we have the stone cold nuts here.
i like the turn bet and check/river line. imo turn bet is mandatory, i really don't like checking back without a heart here and given how coordinated to board is. we are still way ahead of his range and given that we 4bet his 3bet before and now called his 3bet, he will give us a wide calling range that deep and is going nowhere with J+ on Turn.
I agree we have a very strong hand, I wasn't planning on going anywhere. But once he checks the turn, it feels like if I bet and he calls, we are usually behind. I didn't see him c/c many worse hands, because of the heart. He should know that he'll very likely face an all-in on the river, so I don't think c/c Jx would be great for him (or even weak Ax). This means that I would have to bluff the river a lot, but with my hand it seems silly.
Those were some thoughts I had against betting the turn, it obviously has merits as well. In the end I think betting is better for the reasons mentioned in the vid, but I do think it's close
Interesting video. I have alot of thoughts on it...!
At 8mins in the 9T hand on KcK9Qc8c. Do you have a river betting range or do you think you should be checking your entire range to him in order to balance your c/r bluffs?
I would sometimes (not always) bet QJ type of hands, and sometimes bluff with Ax instead of checking.
At around the 19min mark you discuss your raise on the flop with 56 on J2h3h52. You check back the turn when you turn a pair and say you have bluffed the river if the flush hit. Would you ever really not bet a flush draw on the turn after raising the flop? I expect decent players to keep betting flush draws. As your probably viewed as a decent player and aggressive I can't see why a regular would give you any credit for having a flush on a flush river. I think he would snap you off with any jack.
I would be checking back flushdraws on a regular basis. Once people call the flop against me I don't think they're folding much except draws. I expect stronger Jacks (and given he opened SB I expect most of them to be) to continue. That's why I prefer taking my equity sometimes. And what I noticed when taking this line with flushes, is that people would fold a flush river a good amount, so I figured it's also good as a bluff.
At 41mins, you 3bet 8s9s bvb and pot control the flop on 794r because your 150bb deep. You say you'd hate to be c/r this deep (perhaps by a hand like JJ) hence you check behind the flop. I'm not sure your logic is correct? Because your deep and in position imo the villian is alot less likely to c/r you. He's forced to play more honestly because he's oop with alot more to lose. If I'm villian and c/r JJ on this flop and got called or 3bet, arent you almost over-repping your hand?
I think it's quite likely he'll get frisky with some overcards, but at the same time I'm not willing to commit my stack on that assumption. Checking midpair would be considered more normal, but sometimes weak top pairs fall into that category imo.
43 mins you 3bet Kc5c from the sb v button. Given he is likely a fish and you know nothing of his tendancies isnt Kc5c bit of a bad choice of hand to 3bet? When you bet the turn after checking the flop to him your turn bet size struck me as odd on K67r5. You bet 135 into 170. I think if your betting 135 into 170 you might as well bet the full pot. I think your losing value with that bet size. (Especially given he pot controlled the flop. He's going to have a tonne of weaker 2pr hands and pair plus straight draws)
No, I do have the information he is a fish and I have a feel for his tendencies, I think 3betting is fine. Betsizing is over 3/4 pot, should be fine as well. Sometimes fish get scared of the pot button.
The AK hand at the end. c/c the flop is way better than c/r imo for the reasons you said plus how often is he cbetting a QJx flop light when you call a 3bet from utg? That flop smacks your range. I doubt you have much fold equity on your c/r and you waste your equity when he shoves.
Yeah I agree I like c/c more. Didn't really consider it while playing, but glad I did afterwards. Thanks for the good questions
And what I noticed when taking this line with flushes, is that people would fold a flush river a good amount, so I figured it's also good as a bluff.
i agree, i still think we should bet here. of course no jack goes anywhere on turn, some call (vs me) even river. you picked up a gin card giving us 5 more outs.
we can bluff on any:
flush - 9cards
ace - 3 (NFD)
king - 3 (2nd nfd)
= 17cards
"value bet" (i dont think we will get called that often)
str8t - 3
2pair/trips - 3
= 6cards
so on around half of the deck we will win the pot on river (a high %), so turn would only need to be breakeven to make this line profitable.
I would be checking back flushdraws on a regular basis. Once people call the flop against me I don't think they're folding much except draws. I expect stronger Jacks (and given he opened SB I expect most of them to be) to continue. That's why I prefer taking my equity sometimes. And what I noticed when taking this line with flushes, is that people would fold a flush river a good amount, so I figured it's also good as a bluff.
If your not betting any flush draws on the turn after raising the flop, isnt your range left at being just the nuts??? If i saw you check back the turn with a flush draw here I would be pretty happy folding alot of my Jx hands as the villian on the turn. It think it leaves your range very unbalanced. I also think you do have some fold equity on the turn because some weaker pair hands often call the flop and fold the turn. In a vacuum checking flushdraws might be best but if your trying to construct a more solid gameplan I can't see how betting isnt better.
I think it's quite likely he'll get frisky with some overcards, but at the same time I'm not willing to commit my stack on that assumption. Checking midpair would be considered more normal, but sometimes weak top pairs fall into that category imo.
I don't hate a check back at all. At 100bb I think a check is best. However 150bb+ I still think betting is probably better and I think I prefer betting mp and bp too. Its nice not to cap our range either.
No, I do have the information he is a fish and I have a feel for his tendencies, I think 3betting is fine. Betsizing is over 3/4 pot, should be fine as well. Sometimes fish get scared of the pot button.
I've been experimenting with using the pot button alot. Given the board texture I'm pretty certain if he's calling 3/4pot he's calling pot. Fish don't think enough about the implications for the next street and will just look at their hand and think 'pair plus straight draw - I call!' etc. In my experience its not the fish that get scared of the pot button its the regs that do
on the T9 KK9c Qc 8c flop u said you'd checkraise a K on the river too but then again u c-r your 9 based on the logic that it folds out a Q & if that's so then that seems to devalue c-r a K if a Q is folding. i don't see what your getting value from, would seem odd 4 villian to have a worse K to call u with on a bet check bet line, that line is never a K. seems possible villian could bet flop ck back a flush draw possibly for fear of getting c-r off his draw
i agree, i still think we should bet here. of course no jack goes anywhere on turn, some call (vs me) even river. you picked up a gin card giving us 5 more outs.
we can bluff on any:
flush - 9cards
ace - 3 (NFD)
king - 3 (2nd nfd)
= 17cards
"value bet" (i dont think we will get called that often)
str8t - 3
2pair/trips - 3
= 6cards
so on around half of the deck we will win the pot on river (a high %), so turn would only need to be breakeven to make this line profitable.
I do think it is a profitable line to continue bluffing, and I would have if did not turn the 6. Checking back would have less value to it, because we can't pick off bluffs.
Now the situation is slightly different. Checking back will clearly net us a far greater result than breaking even, so in order to make betting better than checking here, you should no longer solve for the turnbet to be breakeven, but you should solve for it to be +X BBs.
That obviously will make a turnbet less attractive. Whether that amount is more than the worth of checking back is tough to decide on. I like the strategy of betting FDs sometimes and sometimes checking back to mediate the potential error I would be making by only doing one.
If your not betting any flush draws on the turn after raising the flop, isnt your range left at being just the nuts??? If i saw you check back the turn with a flush draw here I would be pretty happy folding alot of my Jx hands as the villian on the turn. It think it leaves your range very unbalanced. I also think you do have some fold equity on the turn because some weaker pair hands often call the flop and fold the turn. In a vacuum checking flushdraws might be best but if your trying to construct a more solid gameplan I can't see how betting isnt better.
I'd bet my 56s type of hands that did not turn the 6. Basically hands that only can win the pot if I continue betting. (and sometimes of course I'd just give up) I think even with low equity these bluffs can be profitable for reasons mentioned by fifflein.
I still bet FD some % of the time, especially if it's a stronger one, but I think the option of checking back is often overlooked when we have some equity.
Turn bettingrange includes FDs, valuehands and low-equity bluffs, so it's quite balanced and annoying to play against. People don't feel comfortable folding a Jack, but also not so great calling it, which is exactly the spot we want to put them in.
I don't hate a check back at all. At 100bb I think a check is best. However 150bb+ I still think betting is probably better and I think I prefer betting mp and bp too. Its nice not to cap our range either.
Interesting, I would feel better about betting 100bb deep than 150. What would you do against a c/r?
I've been experimenting with using the pot button alot. Given the board texture I'm pretty certain if he's calling 3/4pot he's calling pot. Fish don't think enough about the implications for the next street and will just look at their hand and think 'pair plus straight draw - I call!' etc. In my experience its not the fish that get scared of the pot button its the regs that do
Always good to learn something, will take this into account in future play!
on the T9 KK9c Qc 8c flop u said you'd checkraise a K on the river too but then again u c-r your 9 based on the logic that it folds out a Q & if that's so then that seems to devalue c-r a K if a Q is folding. i don't see what your getting value from, would seem odd 4 villian to have a worse K to call u with on a bet check bet line, that line is never a K. seems possible villian could bet flop ck back a flush draw possibly for fear of getting c-r off his draw
I c/r not because I think he bet/folds a 100% of the time, but because he bet/folds a very high % of the time (at least more than the 57% we need). His bettingrange consists of mostly Qx and bluffs.
I don't include completed draws in his range, because I'd expect him to bet them on the turn almost always. I would never c/r this turn and he should know this. The Q is also a good card to use as bluffingcard.
So let's say he bet/folds 75% of the time, which I think is reasonable. Then my c/r with the 9x is profitable. But, because he still calls a non-zero% of the time with things that are mostly worse than Kx, c/r with Kx is also better than c/c.
Really good vid. A couple nice spots that I tend to play differently but I prefer your analysis.
Only major hand I'd disagree with was the 98ss hand from 41m where you 3bet IP. I'd bet the turn bigger and check back the river. Turn is a good spot for him to c/c to pot control a better made hand than yours and to induce a bluff. River it seems like he is hard pressed to call with anything worse other than exactly 88. Maybe AQ/AK as a big herocall if he plays them this way but he probably 4bets AK a lot and might fold that river.
hey , good video as usual.
I noticed throughout the video that u were flatting alot of hands out of the small blinds, hands like ajs kq . Is that always a flat for vs regulars opening the button? Can u give me the reasons for not 3betting those.
U don't like a c/c if the fish folded because u have 5 outs. I guess this would only be the case if we suspect it will be hard to get to showdown (like we get barreled a lot). Why do you think we are gonna face a 2 or 3 barrel in this spot? I thought it was only good to c/r 3rd pair if we can't call multiple streets and suspect more bets than only flop. On a dry flop like this however, I suspect he is cbetting once and giving up quite a lot because ur perceived range consists of a lot of Kx since he opens UTG+1 and u call in the bb. Or do you think he 2barrels a lot since u have a pocket pair quite often. Also, if you suspect multiple bets, why not c/r turn or river instead of flop?
Would you c/c if BTN opens and u call this hand in bb (sb folds), and he cbets on same flop since his range contains of much more air? And what about c/r turn in that spot?
Also, what would ur plan be on an ace turn after u c/r flop and he calls?
7:00 table 3
I saw u considered leading. What do you think about that? I think u get more folds compared to a c/r in that spot since his range is wider when u donk compared to his cbet range since he is not cbetting 100% here. Also the board hits ur range pretty hard, and I think it can be already +ev if u give up unless u hit since I don't think he can do much when u donk unless he has Ax, Jx or a draw.
10:30 table 3
This time you do lead. What is the difference with the hand at 7:00 table 3? You have the same amount of outs, and I think even less FE because it's 3way with a fish, so I think I prefer to lead the 7:00 table 3 hand. What do you think about that? Also, what would ur plan be if the reg folds, fish calls, turn blank? And on turns that connect with flop?
11:25 table 3
You call pre flop. Why not 3bet small to get HU with the fish? Also Gogol seems pretty active, so what do you think about not having a sb calling range when he is in the bb? I mean, Gogol can squeeze pretty light here, and u will have to fold a lot. And what do you think about not having a callingrange in the sb in general? (unless there is a fish in bb).
17:30 table 4
Do you think he would call down 3 barrels with Jx in that spot? Just don't really get why you didn't 3barrel since after he calls flop u likely don't have the best hand on turn. I do get he is not likely to fold turn, so a 2barrel is bad, but curious what you think about firing 3. And if you decide to fire 3, what about a heart river? Bet is because it hits ur range well since u have a lot of flush draws? Or don't bet since he is likely to have flush draws? Or do you think he 3bets flop a lot with those?
U mention u would valuebet the river with a J. Why do you think that is the correct play? I mean, you bluff now because you suspect him to fold pairs below Jx right? So why valuebet Jx if he folds those worse valuehands?
37:54 table 1
Can you explain the reason for your riverbet sizing? Like do you think he always bets Qx on turn and therefore after turn chk chk his most likely hand is a pair below Qx and u want him to call that?
If the turn was a diamond, what would your plan be? I mean, u still can't suspect a lot of folds, but ur equity is better.
Also, would u valuebet a T on the turn? What about a diamond T since u need less protection?
40:00 table 4
Do you think it would be a good cbet if you don't suspect to get bluff c/r a lot (like on 50nl and 100nl) and take down the pot a good amount for protection vs overcards which he has a lot I guess?
49:00 table 1
Do you think Jinmay should have bet river with his missed flush draw since u are likely to c/r ur big hands on flop/turn since the board is quite drawy? Atleast in his shoes I am betting river big with my entire range because I suspect a lot of folds because I suspect a raise earlier from villain with 2pair+, so wonder if this is a leak I have.
It was a very good video. Took a lot of notes, since u explained a lot very well :) Esp the ''If villain is likely to think u have a missed draw a lot on the river, when he bets he likely has a missed draw himself, and if he checks he is likely to have a valuehand'' I had a ''eureka moment''. Like it is so obvious, but would never have think about it myself.
U mention u would valuebet the river with a J. Why do you think that is the correct play? I mean, you bluff now because you suspect him to fold pairs below Jx right? So why valuebet Jx if he folds those worse valuehands?
Good question, there are some important fundamentals in this hand that will apply to a lot of other hands as well. To see why it is possible to vb Jx and also bluff, consider the extreme case where he always has 9x. If he herocalls 0-60% of the time (to a 2/3 potbet), we should continue with all our bluffs, while there is still lots of value to vb anything stronger than 9x (assuming he doesn't bluff when we check).
Naturally in real hands things will be somewhat closer, but the key fundamental still applies: it is possible to both vb light and bluff in the same spot.
37:54 table 1
Can you explain the reason for your riverbet sizing? Like do you think he always bets Qx on turn and therefore after turn chk chk his most likely hand is a pair below Qx and u want him to call that?
If the turn was a diamond, what would your plan be? I mean, u still can't suspect a lot of folds, but ur equity is better.
Also, would u valuebet a T on the turn? What about a diamond T since u need less protection?
I'm not sure if my riverbetsizing was optimal. I sized it that way because he has a green tag and I was hoping for some random call, but in hindsight I feel like fishy players would often bet/fold the turn with all sorts of pairs (they bet for info) and check draws, so maybe i should've checked and hope he makes some bluff attempt. Especially if I also take into account that weaker players are unable to herocall that easily on an Ace.
If turn is diamond I continue betting, and consider firing the river as well. Though at that point I do think his hand is Qx alot and I have to figure out if he will fold that. The problem with betting a T on the turn is that I don't know what to do on a blank river. I would probably check and see what happens. It is not like I will get 2 streets of value anyways, so I think that way I minimize vs Qx and still get value from lower pairs at some point. Protection is not so important when I don't know if I even have the best hand.
40:00 table 4
Do you think it would be a good cbet if you don't suspect to get bluff c/r a lot (like on 50nl and 100nl) and take down the pot a good amount for protection vs overcards which he has a lot I guess?
Yes, although in my experience back in the day, 100nl was the place where people started bluffing and 3betting ridiculously because they just saw it in a video ;) Just think about if they would almost always 4bet TT+, then suddenly their range on the flop becomes heavily weighted towards KQ/AQ. I have read some forum post where you were playing too tight in certain spots, so when in doubt on this flop (whether they are able to bluff c/r or not) I would recommend checking it back.
49:00 table 1
Do you think Jinmay should have bet river with his missed flush draw since u are likely to c/r ur big hands on flop/turn since the board is quite drawy? Atleast in his shoes I am betting river big with my entire range because I suspect a lot of folds because I suspect a raise earlier from villain with 2pair+, so wonder if this is a leak I have.
Very interesting, my first instinct was that this board development helps me more than him, but when I thought about it more I think the opposite is true. A lot of SC's would 3bet preflop, and there's simply not that many Tx or sets in my riverrange either. So if that is true, my range becomes more weighted towards A9x, and it is fair to try and get me to fold that. So I think it would be a good spot to go for it. Just remember that just because someone's range is weak, doesn't mean they will fold. Sometimes people are even more inclined to call when their range is obviously weak.
It was a very good video. Took a lot of notes, since u explained a lot very well :) Esp the ''If villain is likely to think u have a missed draw a lot on the river, when he bets he likely has a missed draw himself, and if he checks he is likely to have a valuehand'' I had a ''eureka moment''. Like it is so obvious, but would never have think about it myself.
