Dan plays his regular game, on camera, in this $ 200 NL 6-Max Zoom 2 part series. Topics include stylistic adjustments, zoom dynamics, small 3-bet/4-bets, and strengthening ranges.
You say that he's opening really wide UTG and 4betting loads. It seems like 88 plays pretty badly postflop with a low SPR and you just end up getting bluffed a lot or having to make really thin call downs or a really thin raise/call on the flop (as you do in this case). I could understand 3betting 88 to 5bet jam if you think he's too wide and 4betting too much but 3betting to flat a 4bet seems pretty bad (unless you expect him to flat a lot and expect lots of good things to happen that way?).
Am I missing something or could you (or anyone else) explain if I'm wrong with my approach to this spot?
And while this is going on while you're talking about the T9s hand on the other table where you talk about avoiding unnecessary variance in that hand and then take a ridiculously high variance line with 88 on the other table when you have a much lower variance and (possibly much better) alternative. And as far as variance being bad, the lack of dynamics building up (which you talk about at some point) seems to help lower variance a lot in my experience of zoom (all at 100nl).
You're definitely not wrong in flatting it of course not, that is the standard line. 3betting to 5bet is fine as well, but the risk reward of doing that when we 3bet small and then see a small 4bet is not good enough. ($186 to win $46 total or whatever) say we went $18 and then saw $44 or whatever then there's a ton of dead money out there, an even smaller PSR postflop and so let's jam.
3betting small to flat 4bets in general is just something I do a lot. You say we'll get bluffed a lot and have to make thin call downs...... this may seem true but in reality facing a wide UTG range and wide 4betting range I'm just happy to play it postflop and navigate it. We're ahead of his fightback range and for us to not flat the 4bet we'd have to be saying we're at a postflop disadvantage. I think being IP, disguised range, and probably better player ensure's we're actually at a postflop advantage.
Higher variance yes (at least when he 4bets, in reality people fold a lot or flat OOP and we make a lot of low variance dead money), but I just think we're clearly winning VS his fightback range when we make the 3bet and this is the main criteria for me.
6,30 min ~ Table 1 when u called in sb with T9s and lead 598ss. Is the mainreason u are leading here cuz u think that u can get into a lot of trouble cc, when your range is capped from villains perspective and he might barrel off? Or maybe a mix of that and the fact that your hand is pretty vulnerable? Overall do u think its good to lead kind of depolarized in spots like this?
17,30 ~ Table 1 you call with 74s in bb after btn opens and sb flats. First off, i usually always 3bet here when i decide to play it, do u think thats fine or should i mix in calling sometimes? I kind of have a hard time seeing that i will make money by flatting, but i obv need to improve my "without initiative play" also. My second question is what your general play is gonna be if called by either of the players? I think my general plan would be to bet almost any turn if one of em calls flop, with the intention of betting an ace and diamonds otr, what do u think about that?
how do you expect villain's range to look like when he 4bets? Why do you think flatting the 4bet is higher ev than 5betting? Or even folding? On which boards are you planning to attack him or are you just looking for low boards to get it in?
11.:45, JTo, table #1
You are just over 100bigs deep, how do you justify flatting this hand vs a regular? What read do you need for this? What's your plan on J or T high boards? What boards are you going to bluffraise or float on?
In general, what do you feel are the problems with 3betting this small IP? Are there some situations where you make it more? Are there some specific things you don't want to face when flatted? Do you 3b this small also when you're over 200bbs deep? Seems a bit weird to me that you 3b 6$ opens to 14 but e.g. you squeeze a minraise to 18$... @39:40 table #1
6,30 min ~ Table 1 when u called in sb with T9s and lead 598ss. Is the mainreason u are leading here cuz u think that u can get into a lot of trouble cc, when your range is capped from villains perspective and he might barrel off? Or maybe a mix of that and the fact that your hand is pretty vulnerable? Overall do u think its good to lead kind of depolarized in spots like this?
Yeah essentially CC super caps our range VS a very aggressive player and we're not going to do well on most board runouts. And our hand is vulnerable, and not without some value to a calling range so it's a lead for protection (I only makes bets for protection in general where there is at least some element of value). In general, we shouldn't be leading depolarised without a clear idea of how villain will react, but I think given every other option sucks more then this is a fine spot for it.
17,30 ~ Table 1 you call with 74s in bb after btn opens and sb flats. First off, i usually always 3bet here when i decide to play it, do u think thats fine or should i mix in calling sometimes? I kind of have a hard time seeing that i will make money by flatting, but i obv need to improve my "without initiative play" also. My second question is what your general play is gonna be if called by either of the players? I think my general plan would be to bet almost any turn if one of em calls flop, with the intention of betting an ace and diamonds otr, what do u think about that?
Good video man, enjoyed it! ty
Yeah it was just because it was a minraise, and we were left getting 5/1 with a decent PSR and absolute position on a fish. I didn't want to squeeze because I felt this villain would recognise I'm obviously isolating the fish and play back a ton.
If we were called on the flop, we plan to bet again and rep a flush on the river if it comes in (VS the reg). VS the fish meh we check turn and hopefully he lets us see showdown for cheap with his wide drawing range. Seems like we agree a lot!
how do you expect villain's range to look like when he 4bets? Why do you think flatting the 4bet is higher ev than 5betting? Or even folding? On which boards are you planning to attack him or are you just looking for low boards to get it in?
I just think his range to look...... wide. The most important stat given the smallish sample is his overall open from UTG, 22%. Then looking at his overall fold to 3bet being low and him being so far aggressive just all add up to a wide bluffing 4bet range. In addition, people are pretty polarised especially at Zoom and you don't see many AKs, JJs or even QQ go in UTG VS BTN. So a ton of bluffs, what these bluffs are made up of his hard to say. I would advocate 4betting more depolarised stuff like QTs for the times you're flatted, but the standard in this spot is to 4bet all blockers so he could have a ton of A7o etc thrown in as well. I proceeding on the assumption that both ranges make up his range here.
Why do I think flatting the 4bet is better than 5betting? Well let's start with flatting VS folding.
equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 33.281% 33.09% 00.19% 135990732 778128.00 { 88 }
Hand 1: 66.719% 66.53% 00.19% 273405972 778128.00 { JJ+, AKs, AKo }
This is VS a value 4bet range. We have equity and odds to flat even VS a strong range. Throw in a load of bluffs and we're actually a favourite:
equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 57.515% 57.26% 00.25% 1882628448 8232708.00 { 88 }
Hand 1: 42.485% 42.24% 00.25% 1388529816 8232708.00 { JJ+, A2s+, KTs+, QTs+, JTs, 98s, 87s, 76s, 65s, 54s, A2o+, KTo+, QTo+, JTo }
But for arguments sake let's pretend his range is stronger than that. We have 33% equity and need around 31% or something to make the flat. For us not to flat it, then we're essentially saying that we are going to be at a postflop disadvantage thus making the flat unprofitable. I would basically suggest that we are actually at a postflop advantage, being IP with a disguised range and being better players.
VS jamming........ we've all seen the 5bet jamming maths, he'd have to fold 58% or something which I think is reasonable and I'm sure marginally profitable in this exact spot. What I don't like is to invite the variance associated with it. Yes I end up taking an apparently high variance line postflop but that was far from guaranteed and I'd say the success % of our raise is so high as to constitute pretty low variance actually. Basically I'm much happier playing postflop and getting to use our edge in terms of big calls big folds and big bluffs based on lots of postflop variables that aren't present preflop.
In terms of what boards to attack him, hard to say. Essentially the range we've constructed for him doesn't hit a lot of boards super hard. All broadway boards are going to be difficult, but anything else; stabbing when checked to, floating, minraising the flop etc are all going to be options. Moral of the story is wide range ==== attack it.
11.:45, JTo, table #1
You are just over 100bigs deep, how do you justify flatting this hand vs a regular? What read do you need for this? What's your plan on J or T high boards? What boards are you going to bluffraise or float on?
!
Well again, we have equity VS his apparently wide re-stealing range and don't reckon that we're at a postflop disadvantage. The more reads I have (which in reality on zoom, basically = stats) the wider we can flat. I can't remember but I think we pinned his range there at like 14% or something which is pretty wide and going to miss the flop a lot. The questions are so situational..... often it depends on his betsizing and timing. Like a T hi board, say we called flop and he insta 3/4 pots turn we can probably get away. Say the board is QJ3, we call, turn is K. Probably we bluff turn and river. Say it's a low board, people are 1 n done a lot we can float and call down on J T turns. Etc. Hard to sum up poker in a paragraph I suppose lol.
In general, what do you feel are the problems with 3betting this small IP? Are there some situations where you make it more? Are there some specific things you don't want to face when flatted? Do you 3b this small also when you're over 200bbs deep? Seems a bit weird to me that you 3b 6$ opens to 14 but e.g. you squeeze a minraise to 18$... @39:40 table #1
ty for the vid, nice to see zoom content!
Another good question. In fact all the Qs in this thread have been really decent.
Problems with 3betting this small IP:
You get flatted OOP more, and have to do a little thinking as to whether this particular player is going to be flatting wider because of small 3bet or whether we should assign standard strong range.
You get 4bet small more often, forcing us to flat the 4bet, which isn't a problem for me because I'm happy there and my DB shows it makes money but without experience in them you might initially lose your shirt.
Advantages
You get better odds on your bluff, obviously.
People flat OOP more and generally suck there.
We're able to flat the smaller 4bet and play a big pot IP with a disguised range.
It probably tilts people.
Seems a bit weird to me that you 3b 6$ opens to 14 but e.g. you squeeze a minraise to 18$... @39:40 table #1
Hmm....... it's a question of risk reward. When I 3bet a $6 open to $14, I'm risking $14 to win $9, leaving him to call $8 to win $23 and getting 3/1 ish. When I sqz a minraise and a call from $4 to $18, I'm looking to win $11 and giving my opponent $14 to win $29, which is only 2/1 but that's cos if he calls then the other dude isn't super obviously priced in at 3/1. I should probably make it $20 if anything.
the range ^^ you assigned for the utg to be 4b bluffing with is obviously incorrect, since there's no way 22% range is going to contain A2o-A8o, which are largely the proportion of that range which you are ahead of preflop. Also, when you say that "the standard in this spot is to 4bet all blockers so he could have a ton of A7o etc thrown in as well." which essentially means it's unlikely that he'll have the suited connectors in there either, which are the second portion of his range that you're ahead of.
I'm surprised if you actually can show a profit with 88 in that spot by flatting the 4bet but maybe you're a sicker soulreader than i give you credit for.
what comes to the JTo, don't know. Most ppl can't show a profit by flatting 3bets with a normal, strong, range so i guess the above paragraph is suitable here as well.
Anyway, it's really good to see this kind of style as well, since i doubt too many ppl play this kind of style. So thanks, and gl.
the range ^^ you assigned for the utg to be 4b bluffing with is obviously incorrect, since there's no way 22% range is going to contain A2o-A8o, which are largely the proportion of that range which you are ahead of preflop. Also, when you say that "the standard in this spot is to 4bet all blockers so he could have a ton of A7o etc thrown in as well." which essentially means it's unlikely that he'll have the suited connectors in there either, which are the second portion of his range that you're ahead of.
Fair enough, but I mean I showed we can make a profit VS the uber strong range so the point stands.
I'm surprised if you actually can show a profit with 88 in that spot by flatting the 4bet but maybe you're a sicker soulreader than i give you credit for.
Ha not sure if serious, but after 500k hands of zoom I'll publish some DB results filtered for whatever you want, promise.
what comes to the JTo, don't know. Most ppl can't show a profit by flatting 3bets with a normal, strong, range so i guess the above paragraph is suitable here as well.
I find this very interesting, and might come from a mistake of their analysis. I went through a stage of folding a ton to 3bets, as my DB showed me losing or breaking even in absolute terms. When you filter for 'flatted 3bet' though, you obviously have to take into account that had you folded, you would've lost your initial raise. So say I flat 500 3bets, having raised $6 each time. I've lost $2000 says HEM. In actual fact we've won $1000 VS folding. When I corrected my analysis, I actually found I was making money flatting a super wide range IP. So either I play better, or people don't realise what I've just said.
the range ^^ you assigned for the utg to be 4b bluffing with is obviously incorrect,
Espeacially when he's 4betting 25% of hands after only opening 22% of them :p But I get the point he's making. Thanks for explaining the 88 in more detail.
Is 3betting smaller with the intention of flatting 4bets in position something that you wanna be able to do with a lot of you're range against someone who's wide pre and 4betting a ton? (As it would seem that with 88 specifically it could be better to 3b larger and 5b if, when you 3b bigger, he's gonna 4b a less polarised range including 4b/folding stuff he may flat the smaller 3b with?) If so, how would you treat hands like KQs, AJo, KQo, JTs where a more "standard" line would be to 3b/fold or flat depending on which of these hands you're talking about. And do you include a lot of slow plays when flatting 4bets in this spot?
Is 3betting smaller with the intention of flatting 4bets in position something that you wanna be able to do with a lot of you're range against someone who's wide pre and 4betting a ton? (As it would seem that with 88 specifically it could be better to 3b larger and 5b if, when you 3b bigger, he's gonna 4b a less polarised range including 4b/folding stuff he may flat the smaller 3b with?) If so, how would you treat hands like KQs, AJo, KQo, JTs where a more "standard" line would be to 3b/fold or flat depending on which of these hands you're talking about. And do you include a lot of slow plays when flatting 4bets in this spot?
Yeah I guess it's a mechanism by which I can be more creative, put people in tougher spots, theoretically creates more an edge (because what edge really is there in the 3bet 4bet 5bet game these days) and lower variance. People often don't 4bet hands that they intend to see a flop with. A6 etc abounds, whereas my 3betting range is tailored to seeing flops. Similarly if we 4bet small, and people flat, they often haven't 3bet a range where they're super happy to be playing a 4bet pot.
In terms of 88 3betting larger to 5bet this might be true but of course I can't switch up the sizing based on my hand.
All those hands you mention I 3bet and flat 4bets with...... of course I still cold call them too depending on the situation. What I would say about cold calling a lot though is that modern blind squeezing is an absolute killer........
If I flat a 4bet of course I have AK AA KK QQ in the range. I guess I don't like going all in pre too much these days.
equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 33.281% 33.09% 00.19% 135990732 778128.00 { 88 }
Hand 1: 66.719% 66.53% 00.19% 273405972 778128.00 { JJ+, AKs, AKo }
This is VS a value 4bet range. We have equity and odds to flat even VS a strong range
....
This is all very true, but aren't you ignoring the fact that:
1) you have a decent amount of reverse implied odds on the boards that are presumably safe for your hand, like the TTx: you say you want to induce from AK but isn't the reality that if you get it in you're absolutely crushed against his range?
2) you say that you will have to give up on broadway boards, but the chance of not having one single broadway card on the flop is ~20%, ~43% if you don't count T's. That's still a lot, and that's not even regarding the scenario where you call flop on a safe board and see a broadway card on the turn anyway.
I guess what I'm trying to say is: pure odds to call isn't going to do you much good if there are a ton of scenario's where you will either fold the best hand, get it in with a worse hand or get outdrawn. Of course you're in position and you're a better player, but when SPR is somewhat low I always learned that these things are less important.
Btw, minor remark: you are right that people are, as a standard, polarized here when they 4bet, but even though you seem to be playing 19/16 or so, your 3bet still seems high based on this vid. You probably played a somewhat decent amount with this guy so he might've picked up on that so he might start to 4-bet JJ+,AK for value as a standard.
Overall really good vid, prolly the first vid in a while I learned a bunch of things from.
