| kostogher |
hey aejones. i remember you said u were very bad at plo, is this still the case?
maybe a cool vid could be you as a beginner and unexperienced player at 6max plo live, at low stakes. i think it would be fun to hear what you are thinking then. |
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| aejones |
i am probably a winner at midstakes plo, unlikely much higher than that. i have played probably ~250k hands lifetime of plo, but some of it was at high stakes, some at low stakes, some at capped tables, etc. i'm a bit turned off by plo and haven't played a ton lately. maybe i'll get 25k hands in next time im in toronto or i'll play on an american based site and make some videos-- i certainly talk with enough supergenius plo players and have played enough to make a decent 200plo video. |
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| limpshove |
Have you heard about this thing called 3betting? It's totally the new thing. Why did you flat all those funky hands like matching jacks, kings and ace queen?
Awesome to see some more midstakes HU content running! Can we expect a nutsinho vs sauce match soon? |
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| habanero |
great, always happy to see ae vid, thx |
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| finewan |
Hmm, pretty interesting anyway. Certainly making me think about heads up strategies. |
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| davisimo |
Dunno if I have ever seen a heads up video where the instructor 3b 0%! |
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| desire |
who would have thought so many leggo members are that slow, i haven't even seen the video but it seems pretty clear as to what went down |
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| aejones |
who would have thought so many leggo members are that slow, i haven't even seen the video but it seems pretty clear as to what went down
wait what? |
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| aejones |
Have you heard about this thing called 3betting? It's totally the new thing. Why did you flat all those funky hands like matching jacks, kings and ace queen?
Dunno if I have ever seen a heads up video where the instructor 3b 0%!
i assume i address this in the video, so im not sure why ppl are asking so many questions, but since my opponent is minraising and i don't expect him to have particularly bad frequencies wrt 3bet calling or 4betting, i think the risk/reward makes 3-betting less appealing. i would never 3-bet 0% vs a 2.5x at 100 bbs, and i would never 3-bet 0% vs a 3x obv, but vs a minraise i think it's fine.
i also think 3-betting 12-15% with a very carefully constructed range is good |
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| Probability |
wait what?
I think he's surprised there are so many questions and comments about the lack of 3 betting. |
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| aejones |
I think he's surprised there are so many questions and comments about the lack of 3 betting.
Yea that is how I read it too now that I look at it again |
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| hunting4nemo |
wrt to you saying that you should be defending vs minraises in mtt's ridic wide bc of antes to try and realise enough of your equity, how do you consider stuff like different stack size utility, tournament life and how much more money you're going to burn oop vs any good player? |
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| limpshove |
i assume i address this in the video, so im not sure why ppl are asking so many questions, but since my opponent is minraising and i don't expect him to have particularly bad frequencies wrt 3bet calling or 4betting, i think the risk/reward makes 3-betting less appealing. i would never 3-bet 0% vs a 2.5x at 100 bbs, and i would never 3-bet 0% vs a 3x obv, but vs a minraise i think it's fine.
i also think 3-betting 12-15% with a very carefully constructed range is good
Interesting. So my normal approach vs a minraise strategy is to just both 3bet and call more and flat some more 4bets (cause deeper stacks).
At around 11min, you give the argument for flatting AA and KK because if you're defending 65-80% OOP vs a 100% btn minraise, you need those hands to strengthen your range. In the video I saw you fold the BB with T4o, T3o, T2o, J3o, 34o, 92o, 62o, 83o, resulting in about an 80% BB VPIP when extrapolated.
I've not encountered the difference between having a 3betting strategy or not having one at all being 0.5bb pre (in open raise size). Can you elaborate on a really obvious case that would sway you one way or the other, assuming there is no glaring leak pre like a high f3bet, low 4bet or anything like that.
I'm also very interested in what you think a carefully constructed 3betting range looks like, and why. At which point does stack size come into play there? If you're not 3betting anything 100bb deep, where do you start to? 120? 150?
Thanks for elaborating :) |
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| aejones |
wrt to you saying that you should be defending vs minraises in mtt's ridic wide bc of antes to try and realise enough of your equity, how do you consider stuff like different stack size utility, tournament life and how much more money you're going to burn oop vs any good player?
stack size utility is important but rarely does 1 bb make a difference
tournament life is even more important but never applicable
im defending tighter vs good players in tournaments
there are no good players in tournaments |
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| aejones |
Interesting. So my normal approach vs a minraise strategy is to just both 3bet and call more and flat some more 4bets (cause deeper stacks).
I'd rather do this less because I think the lead is very valuable
At around 11min, you give the argument for flatting AA and KK because if you're defending 65-80% OOP vs a 100% btn minraise, you need those hands to strengthen your range. In the video I saw you fold the BB with T4o, T3o, T2o, J3o, 34o, 92o, 62o, 83o, resulting in about an 80% BB VPIP when extrapolated.
I think it ended up being something like that
I've not encountered the difference between having a 3betting strategy or not having one at all being 0.5bb pre (in open raise size). Can you elaborate on a really obvious case that would sway you one way or the other, assuming there is no glaring leak pre like a high f3bet, low 4bet or anything like that.
Hmmm... like I said against someone good it's hard to "decide." If I wanted to up variance I guess I'd start 3-betting more. I mean the fact is I'm okay with playing small pots OOP. I think it's cool to play passively since most ppl are very aggressive. I think Jason did a pretty good job of slowly letting off the gas pedal, c-betting less as the video went on, bluffing less because he found out from anecdotal evidence that I was a station.
I'm also very interested in what you think a carefully constructed 3betting range looks like, and why. At which point does stack size come into play there? If you're not 3betting anything 100bb deep, where do you start to? 120? 150?
I would actually be less likely to 3-bet with those stack sizes, because I am creating a very workable PSR for my opponent, who is good, and in position, and can choose the range he plays with (so he might fold to 3-bet like 40% or something, so now he's got a range of pairs and suited cards and high cards and he gets to play against my 3-betting range but gets to act last on all streets).
Basically, since my opponent can call a 3-bet to... let's say 7 bbs, there are 14 bbs in there and still 100 bbs behind (most tables we'll have a bit more than 100 bbs to start if we've been playing a while). So there is 7x the pot left, contrasted to a 3 bb raise preflop where there might be 5x the pot left or less after the 3-bet. This changes how wide he's able to float, how creative he's able to be, etc. If he's not 4-betting strong hands it makes it even more difficult to play against.
What I mean by construct a 3-bet range is basically if I'm 12-15% and still flatting 60% of hands I'm really unlikely to be very wide for value-- I might be like AK/AQ and TT-JJ for value, some random face card hands, and then the lowest part of my SC range (like 53s or something) because he will fold a lot of K3 and T5 to my 3-bets that dominate me. I would probably keep AA-QQ in my flatting range, again, for protection-- whatever is going on in the match, if I'm CR'ing a lot, if he's barreling a lot, I'll hopefully be able to use AA-QQ in my value range for CR'ing the flop or turn or calling down his bluffs since it's so hard to make a pair that good HU. |
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| mootang |
watched first 30 mins and I like.
you raised some very interesting points mr. jones. no one likes defending some of these hands to a minraise and usually everyone wants to fold and get onto their button! but I gotta do a better job of calling some of these hands. also having a strengthened calling range in these small pots will really allow you to open your bluff frequencies up and play more profitably out of the BB.
lets be honest poker was a lot more fun hu when everyone was 3x'ng and doing some high variance lines without respect to proper balancing/bluffing frequency. some of these hu matches where everyone is minraising feel a lot different but its the more optimal approach. Its not like this is a new concept as people have been minraising but proper hu strategy these days is playing a lot more small ball.
I think when you had A9 at the 30 min mark on 678AT board and he bets 108 and you shove 570 more. You absolutely should be making it $340 (shove is to much and if you were bluffing I'd really advocate not having a shoving range here). You commented on this already but just wanted to restate.
damn you play very good though. im going to just keep saying it. |
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| mootang |
@klink. at 27:30. you take a semi interesting line of cc K87dd board and cr a Qs turn.
Seems like a good spot to do this with your semi bluffs. and a good way to punish aejones for betting a wide variety of cheese on this turn and putting him in a tough spot. Mind saying what you had? I like your line either way. |
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| arturboruc |
good video, looking forward to part 2.
why can't i read klink's blog? it redirects me to some weird "PokerIsFun" blog. |
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| j_t_s80 |
I think you played like a weak cat. He adapted to your style well and owned you like a baby.
Are you sure this video wasnt done to confuse players cause you are so sick of teaching them?
If thats the case then great video and do more of them cause its better teaching the wrong thing . |
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| aejones |
i think i played bad vs. ur style
yeah should have adusted faster since you could c/r dry boards and have like TT+
def could have played better don't think ive ever played anyone w/ your style took too long to adjust
let's play "who said this?" |
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| Vitas23 |
good video, looking forward to part 2.
why can't i read klink's blog? it redirects me to some weird "PokerIsFun" blog.
That issue should be fixed now, if not let me know. |
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| klink10k |
despite a very unorthodox preflop strat, aaron had a really solid postflop game in terms of all his frequencies, there were some hands that he made some calls with that i thought were way too stationy but thats about it. haven't watched the video and don't really remember the match that much...
would love to play more in the future |
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| themightyjim |
aejones I get why you're not 3betting in terms of range construction and balance, but I just find it hard to believe that is the most profitable way to play since you never lower stack depth meaning klink's positional advantage maximized. I would think that increasing and already great player's positional advantage would make it nearly impossible to beat them in the long run. I assume it would take tremendous postflop skill, and while I don't doubt you're one of the best postflop, I'd assume that you don't have much if any edge on klink.
I'm just not sure I buy your argument that balancing your calling range to a minraise is more valuable to your bottom line than constructing an effective 3bet/flat 4bet/5bet range. Not that I think it makes you an easy opponent or anything like that, just that you're giving klink a larger edge than he'd have otherwise.
I'd really like to hear klink's thoughts on this no preflop 3bet.
klink: do you think always calling your entire continuing range instead of 3betting some portion of it is a more profitable strategy against you when 100bb deep? 200bb deep? 400bb deep? |
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| themightyjim |
also fwiw aejones I think it's a great video and still think you played well in pt 1. I guess I'm trying to have a discussion on the strat and not trying to criticize your play. I'm open to the idea that this is a more profitable way to construct a preflop range against a difficult min-raising opponent, I just haven't heard a convincing argument yet. |
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| aejones |
aejones I get why you're not 3betting in terms of range construction and balance, but I just find it hard to believe that is the most profitable way to play since you never lower stack depth meaning klink's positional advantage maximized.
is it? or does it mean that i never bloat the pot oop against someone capable.
I would think that increasing and already great player's positional advantage would make it nearly impossible to beat them in the long run. I assume it would take tremendous postflop skill, and while I don't doubt you're one of the best postflop, I'd assume that you don't have much if any edge on klink.
its safe to say klink won't be folding an exploitable amount to 3-bets or 4-bet folding an exploitable amount. i can def find some frequency that i do better than him and i think 3-betting is a totally reasonable strategy. likely even better. i just decided not to...
I'm just not sure I buy your argument that balancing your calling range to a minraise is more valuable to your bottom line than constructing an effective 3bet/flat 4bet/5bet range. Not that I think it makes you an easy opponent or anything like that, just that you're giving klink a larger edge than he'd have otherwise.
i hate to say this, but preflop doesnt' matter. i mean, it does, but it doesn't. it pales in comparison to postflop, especially when someone is minraising.
I'd really like to hear klink's thoughts on this no preflop 3bet.
klink: do you think always calling your entire continuing range instead of 3betting some portion of it is a more profitable strategy against you when 100bb deep? 200bb deep? 400bb deep? |
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| mootang |
fwiw not trying to stir up the pot but since aejones is receiving some unwarranted criticism.
i think aejones is a better hu player in both this video and overall then the opponent (but its reasonably close and both are v good). just because some adjustments and game plans aren't standard doesn't mean they are bad by definition. |
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| N0talent |
you Sir are atrocious! |
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| gosuruss |
a9s jam on the AT876 board was retardedly big.. raising 3x is so much better. |
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| redvulture61 |
Your funny as fuck man. |
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