| gobsmacked1 |
Cool idea for a video |
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| baba |
I think these types of videos are great and provide alot more learning material than the typical vid. more please!
2 observations tho:
You dont include the amount you call preflop (usually 3bb) into your winning amount when you successful shove over a squeeze. Since your 3bb is in the pot, its no longer yours, its there to be won, surely you should include that into your sums? Hope that makes sense!
You frequently shove aq/aj etc over a squeeze. If AeJones watchs this vid, i'd really like to hear some thoughts from him on this? I could have got this wrong, but i'm sure he advocates never 4betting Aq/Aj in a spot where you can profitably call a 3bet i.e it has too much postflop value/playability.
AeJones if your out there.....! |
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| baba |
dont suppose you could post your excel spreadsheet for download? would be nice! |
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| aejones |
baba, everything is situation oriented. I mean, If player X is squeezing Y% when you open and loose SB flats, you can figure out what he's doing it with for value (JJ/TT+ or AQ/AK, depending on the player), and then you can just figure out how often he has to fold when your hand (let's say AJ or 88) gets called (based on what equity you have when called, obviously).
I haven't done calcs like this very frequently, in fact I haven't hardly done them at all in my career, but I advocate most people do them.
IF you are going to flat a 3-bet, you are getting some sort of price depending on how this player will play postflop, but hands for doing it would include strong face card hands and strong suited connectors (suited broadways, basically). They would NOT include hands like 77, which do okay when all in preflop vs AQ/TT+ but do not do so hot after the flop because you will find yourself set mining too frequently. |
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| Irishman07 |
I think these types of videos are great and provide alot more learning material than the typical vid. more please!
2 observations tho:
You dont include the amount you call preflop (usually 3bb) into your winning amount when you successful shove over a squeeze. Since your 3bb is in the pot, its no longer yours, its there to be won, surely you should include that into your sums? Hope that makes sense!
You frequently shove aq/aj etc over a squeeze. If AeJones watchs this vid, i'd really like to hear some thoughts from him on this? I could have got this wrong, but i'm sure he advocates never 4betting Aq/Aj in a spot where you can profitably call a 3bet i.e it has too much postflop value/playability.
AeJones if your out there.....!
I actually included that amount that I called in the line right above the net value of the shove. It's a slightly different way of calculating the value of the shove (adding in the calling amount in after instead of factoring it in to the amount won) but I think the math works out. I'm not a math genius by any means but it should still show whats better, shoving or folding. If anyone wants to verify it I can easily make the excel file available or just explain how to set it up (it's pretty quick/easy)
I didn't go too much into detail about whether calling might have sometimes been better than shoving - but a couple thoughts on that. Certainly a hand like AQ has a good amount of value postflop if you believe your opponent is squeezing a lot. However, in certain scenarios I think it might just be better to shove over the squeeze if you believe it's +ev.
For instance, let's say you're in the CO and flat MP's open with AQ. Button squeezes which you know he does far too much preflop. MP folds and you decide that shoving is +ev. Calling probably isn't bad either but if you aren't comfortable playing postflop - i.e. you feel button will play better postflop because he has position or just because he's better than you than a shove could be warranted. Also, if you don't have a good handle on his postflop tendencies than you'll find yourself in a lot of tough situations where you're not sure if you're making a good decision. I think in those cases if you think shoving preflop is good it might just be best to lock in that ev to avoid making a bad decision later. |
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| aejones |
It should also be noted that calling should very rarely be done OOP. A lot of the value you have is being able to represent certain ranges (stronger than you actually have in absolute value and then stronger than you actually have on some flops) which can be done by floating or bluff raising or playing your value hands in the best manner possible.
If the scenario is open MP, you flat CO with KQs or 88, button is active and squeezes-- well, it'll be really hard to play any hand OOP there, unless it's aces! |
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| BaBa Gato |
great video!
learned a lot from it and it opened my eyes (WHOOT, backraise-shoving TT isn't profitable against a lot of players!?!? )
would be great if you upload the exel-sheet to make some calcs on my own |
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| orpz |
very very good video. more of these in the future please |
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| EvilSky |
Not a math genius either, but im pretty sure the 18 you put in with your call now belongs to the pot, so you EV when he fold would actually be 90+18 and your EV when you fold is always 0 so you dont actually lose 18. |
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| don caballero |
Why isn't this drm-free? |
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| Bazclef |
Great video. Loved the style, a ton of great information packed in there. +1 for making the spreadsheet or quick instructions on making it available pls... my noob notepad method for doing this takes way longer.
AQ hand at like 28min mark. Just seems like we're flipping stacks for a 2.5bb profit. Surely flatting pre is going to be more profitable? Or are we shoving because he has 90bb rather than 100+? I mean if villain has 110bb it's a clear flat, right?
Again with the AQ hand after it. Not tempted to flat and try to hit top pair, or jam on a lot of flops? I struggle to believe that shoving pre is more profitable, unfortunately it's really hard to evaluate! |
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| EvilSky |
Not a math genius either, but im pretty sure the 18 you put in with your call now belongs to the pot, so you EV when he fold would actually be 90+18 and your EV when you fold is always 0 so you dont actually lose 18.
Actually I just made a sheet using my method and your values and it gives me the same result as you, so I guess it works either way, or were both wrong :p |
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| Vitas23 |
Why isn't this drm-free?
I think the font is too small and wont be useful on a portable device (iPod/iPhone). |
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| cal42688 |
In the video during the QQ hand where u flat the 4x isolation and KK squeezes you talked about the influence of other players short stacks affecting or handicapping the ability of players to squeeze light. I just dont think often this has much affect on the situation at all because for example in this hand situation the short stacks were a limper and a random hand sitting in the big blind. I just thought it was interesting you thought it makes a difference or that you believe it influences others decisions, and thereby in turn yours. Can you expand your thoughts on this topic? |
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| Irishman07 |
Great video. Loved the style, a ton of great information packed in there. +1 for making the spreadsheet or quick instructions on making it available pls... my noob notepad method for doing this takes way longer.
AQ hand at like 28min mark. Just seems like we're flipping stacks for a 2.5bb profit. Surely flatting pre is going to be more profitable? Or are we shoving because he has 90bb rather than 100+? I mean if villain has 110bb it's a clear flat, right?
Again with the AQ hand after it. Not tempted to flat and try to hit top pair, or jam on a lot of flops? I struggle to believe that shoving pre is more profitable, unfortunately it's really hard to evaluate!
You're definitely right about in the AQ hand his stack size affecting my decision. If we were 100bb deep+ I would look to flat AQ here. I also think I may have been a little conservative estimating his squeeze percentage so if he's folding more to my shoves then the ev of the squeeze goes up as well.
Like you said, flatting is a viable option as well but is a bit more hard to evaluate numbers wise. In this scenario I'd imagine flatting and shoving are probably fairly close in ev - if he's at 70bb's or something I'd think shoving is a lot more attractive. |
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| Irishman07 |
In the video during the QQ hand where u flat the 4x isolation and KK squeezes you talked about the influence of other players short stacks affecting or handicapping the ability of players to squeeze light. I just dont think often this has much affect on the situation at all because for example in this hand situation the short stacks were a limper and a random hand sitting in the big blind. I just thought it was interesting you thought it makes a difference or that you believe it influences others decisions, and thereby in turn yours. Can you expand your thoughts on this topic?
I guess my thoughts on this is that a limper is much more likely to be a bad player and therefore stack off light. Thus an observant player is much less likely to squeeze something like K8s because often they'll get themselves in a situation where they price themselves in vs a player that stacks off fairly often but still be a fairly sizable underdog when they do get the money in.
So I just think it does handcuff their ability somewhat to squeeze light. Another somewhat typical scenario is if I'm on button and CO opens. Normally I'm looking to 3bet a ton of hands here but if theres a 30bb stack in the big blind that stacks off fairly light I don't want to 3bet pricing myself in vs the 30bb stack when I'm around a 2:1 dog. |
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| Beans |
hey i cant download the sheet for some reason!
this is the error ( Invalid Attachment specified. If you followed a valid link, please notify the administrator )
So Vitaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaas plsz help me out bro! |
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| Vitas23 |
Irishman07 Squeeze Data Spreadsheet |
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| ralphcif789 |
Irishman07 Squeeze Data Spreadsheet
Can anybody double-check if this spreadsheet is still available?
I downloaded it but it's saying the file's invaild.
EDIT: Isnt there another spreadsheet for the implied odds video as well? |
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| Vitas23 |
Can anybody double-check if this spreadsheet is still available?
I downloaded it but it's saying the file's invaild.
Yup, I just checked it for you and I was able to successfully open the spread sheet. Use the red link in the OP to download and use WinZip or WinRAR to unzip the file. |
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| ralphcif789 |
Thanks Vitas. Isnt there another spreadsheet for the implieds odd vid as well? |
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| Vitas23 |
Thanks Vitas. Isnt there another spreadsheet for the implieds odd vid as well?
Yes, it works the same way, here is the link http://www.leggopoker.com/forums/video-discussion/irishman07-600-nl-theory-9861.html. |
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